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Thread: NLP

  1. #11

    Default Re: NLP

    Whatever happened to john grinder?.
    In england john seymour was selling NLP very hard,at one time i had so many mail shots i could hve started my own recycling plant.
    It now seems to have been taken over by new age waffle merchants.
    The net is so full of information its hard to sort the wheat from the chaff.
    Regards Coypu

  2. #12
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    Default Re: NLP

    Quote Originally Posted by RichardHK View Post
    Actually Marisa, this proves to me that the NLP guys are simply playing around at the lower consciousness levels, and getting themselves deluded with visions of grandeur. Much like meditation in the early stages, and same level that many religions do not go beyond. Buddhism, Hinduism, and similar have it all worked out! James and Bandler are trapped playing with their own demons.
    Good point! I think the ol ego is their downfall.

    If the James' lawyers had sent me that letter I would have put it on my website with a Google search link to 'Time Line' that would pick up the many many project management and other disciplines use of phrase WELL before those guys thought of it. Would the Project Management Institute send James a letter? No way. Idiotic.
    I was mildly flattered that he would go to the trouble of going after little ol me for one little article on my own website about Time Line. Also, I was pretty impressed that my article came up on a search engine. LOL How's that for reframing the experience.

    I am gonna skip buying the Bandler books and refer to library copies when needed. My cash will go to Dilts, Hall, Bodenhamer and similar sensible clever folk.
    I see your point in not supporting the acts of foolish people.

    Thought up a new name for the James and Bander practice: NticLP. Get it? Answer at bottom.
    Hee hee good one.

    Very interesting and look forward to any more sources you may find. One thing does puzzle me, and that is if subconscious cannot process the negatives in above, why does it respond to negative suggestions like 'I cannot do this', 'I will not improve', etc. If children are repeatably told they are useless, not clever, whatever, the effect can destroy their future.
    I am still going to continue to look for supporting evidence but in the mean time, I think I can answer the question.

    We are talking about two, although related, different concepts.

    1. If someone tells them self something negative, such as they are stupid, they will create that reality for themselves.

    2. If someone uses negative language such as "don't" the unconscious mind deletes (misses, ignores) the negative word and takes different meaning from the sentence.

    Addressing #1

    The unconscious mind is not capable of "thinking". In other words, it is not capable of knowing the difference between fiction and fact. Every thing that the conscious mind allows to filter to the unconscious will be received as a fact - even if it is really b.s.

    Repetition is one method of hypnosis. If someone you respect tells you that you are stupid repeatedly, then you are likely to believe them and that is the "fact" that you will allow into your unconscious.

    Now the unconscious also acts as a librarian in that it will find bits and pieces from your memories (which are never accurate) to support the new belief.

    If someone tells you that you are a android, your conscious mind will go "ya right!" and reject the idea. It does not go into your unconscious.

    There are ways however, for messages to get past the gate keeper (the conscious mind). Those ways are called "Hypnosis" and hypnosis can occur without you being aware.

    Addressing #2:

    Our conscious mind can process negative language and get the correct meaning. Words are powerful and some words weaken the meaning of a sentence and some strengthen the meaning. For example, read the next two sentences and let me know how each of them affects you:

    1. "I'm not going to say that you have bad breath."
    2. "Your breath is fresh."

    On #1, did you feel like I was saying you had bad breath? Would you agree that #2 was a much stronger sentence?

    Back to the question ....

    If I tell myself that I "can't run the race" my conscious mind is creating a belief of impossibility, which would change my reality relating to ability. Because I am creating a conscious belief, my unconscious would get the command that it was impossible for me to run the race.

    On the other hand, if I tell someone in a hypnosis session that they "can't run the race" would their unconscious mind really hear that they could run the race? Theoretically yes. If I wanted that program to stick (that they could run the race) in a hypnosis session, I would also provide the u/c with supporting information. I would feed it the belief. I would be acting as the conscious mind.

    I know my answers are not complete as there is much more to them than what I'm saying and though our subsequent conversations we can explore more of the reasons and research surrounding the subject. So ... keep asking questions!!

    So, why/how does subconscious not process simple negatives, but then process negative-suggestions big-time? Weird. Still lots to learn, eh?
    It depends on how the negative is delivered. This is a good exercise for me to remember what I've learned and to look at this information critically.

    Thanks!!! M.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: NLP and Language (criticism)

    Hi Richard,

    Here is some further information on the subject of NLP and Language.

    We use language to interpret our experience. We use language to interpret and describe (to ourselves or others) our feelings, what we see, hear and think. We think in words.

    How something is worded can change the meaning of the message. I gave some examples in the previous message.

    The following is something Dilts wrote on Criticism (from his book "Sleight of Mouth) pg 43:

    "Critics are frequently perceived as "spoilers," because they operate from a "problem frame" or "failure frame." (Dreamers, on the other hand, function from the "as if', frame," and realists act from the "outcome frame" and "feedback" frame.")

    A major problem with criticisms, on a linguistic level, is that they are typically asserted in the form of generalized judgments, such as: "This proposal is too costly," "That idea will never word," "That's not a realistic plan," etc. One problem with such verbal generalizations, is that, given the way they are stated, one can only agree or disagree with them. If a person says, "That idea will never work, " or, "it is too expensive," the only way one can respond directly is to say, either "I guess you are right," or "No, you are wrong, the idea will work," or, "No, it is not too expensive," Thus criticism usually leads to polarization, mismatching and ultimately conflict, if one does not agree with the criticism.

    The most challenging problems occur when a critic doesn't merely criticize a dream or a plan, but begins to criticize the "dreamer" or the "realist" on a personal level. This would be the difference between saying, "That idea is stupid," and, "You are stupid for having that idea." When a critic attacks a person at the identity level then the critic is not only a "spoiler" but a "killer."

    It's important to keep in mind, however, that criticism, like all other behavior, is positively intended. The purpose of the "critic" is to evaluate the output of the 'dreamer' and 'realist'. An effective critic makes an analysis of the proposed plan or path in order to find out what could go wring and what should be avoided. Critics find missing links by logically considering 'what would happen if' problems occur. Good critics often take the perspective of people not directly involved in the plan or activity being presented, but who may be effected by it, or influence the implementation of the plan or activity (either positively or negatively)."

    ... "Thus, a keylinguistic skill in addressing criticisms, and transforming problem frames to outcome frames, is the ability to recognize and elicit positive statements of positive intentions."


    ---------

    It's a long explanation that basically says that you'll get much better results if you a) tell a person what you want instead of what you don't want; b) Criticism invites conflict and can demoralize a person, especially if the criticism is aimed at the person and not the person's actions.

  4. #14
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    Default Re:Unconscious language

    I found one reference in a hypnosis book: "Understanding Hypnosis" by Dr. Brian Roet, pg. 110

    "Another aspect of unconscious language that is fascinating is the fact that it cannot comprehend negative attitudes. It does not understand 'not' so it will not process it. Ask someone 'not to think of your nose' and they will immediately think of their nose either:

    - because in order not to do something the mind has to do it first in order to know what it is not to do; or
    - because the negative words are not processed by the mind."

    Unfortunately he doesn't go into detail as to how he knows this or what his source is. Part of the problem in finding any research in this area is coming up with the "key words" to search. I'll keep looking ...

    M.

  5. Default Re: NLP

    Quote Originally Posted by coypu View Post
    Whatever happened to john grinder?.
    In england john seymour was selling NLP very hard,at one time i had so many mail shots i could hve started my own recycling plant.
    It now seems to have been taken over by new age waffle merchants.
    The net is so full of information its hard to sort the wheat from the chaff.
    Regards Coypu
    Hi Coypu,

    Don't know about John Seymour as not in UK since '81, but while sifting through the endless stuff on Net I came across the UK Salad operation and Jamie Smart. Grabbed their freebie, and now got an offer to buy his 'The Art of Metaphor' package at a fair looking package price. Has a video download included which attracts me. Have you used any Salad / Smart stuff? Is it wheat or chaff?
    Richard, Hong Kong
    richardhk dot com
    ------------------------

  6. #16
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    Default Re: NLP

    Quote Originally Posted by coypu View Post
    Whatever happened to john grinder?.
    Regards Coypu
    He's still around. http://www.johngrinder.com/

    M.

  7. Default Re: NLP

    Thanks again Marisa,

    Like the Dilts extract and have actually added that book to my Amazon list for triggering later today. I was very much into group-think critics and similar with my corporate change management work. This book would have helped. Have scanned through Dilt's 'Tools for Dreamers' book which is excellent for future use (when I have learnt some basic skills).

    The negatives topic is really interesting, and I will keep a conscious eye out for more information! Would be good to hear more of your own thoughts as they develop over the days ahead. Good to review these topics.

    Talk again soon. Must get on with some work.
    Richard, Hong Kong
    richardhk dot com
    ------------------------

  8. #18

    Default Re: NLP

    Quote Originally Posted by RichardHK View Post
    Hi Coypu,

    Don't know about John Seymour as not in UK since '81, but while sifting through the endless stuff on Net I came across the UK Salad operation and Jamie Smart. Grabbed their freebie, and now got an offer to buy his 'The Art of Metaphor' package at a fair looking package price. Has a video download included which attracts me. Have you used any Salad / Smart stuff? Is it wheat or chaff?
    Hi richard thanks for the link ,it looks better than most although ive only had a quick look ,ime a bit busy at the moment.
    ive read some of Bandlers books,structureof magic 1and 2,paterns 1,2,frogs into princes,and trans-formations.
    I had a few more but i lent them out and they were never returned!
    One boook i would recomend is Derren Brown tricks of the mind.
    Also malcolm godwin the lucid dreamer.
    ime going for a chew on the salad bar now ile let you know my impressions later. COYPU..

  9. Default Re: NLP

    Quote Originally Posted by coypu View Post
    Hi richard thanks for the link ,it looks better than most although ive only had a quick look ,ime a bit busy at the moment.
    ive read some of Bandlers books,structureof magic 1and 2,paterns 1,2,frogs into princes,and trans-formations.
    I had a few more but i lent them out and they were never returned!
    One boook i would recomend is Derren Brown tricks of the mind.
    Also malcolm godwin the lucid dreamer.
    ime going for a chew on the salad bar now ile let you know my impressions later. COYPU..
    Hi Coypu,

    Just watched Derren Brown (first time) and his Bank of England heist program tonight on BBC Entertainment channel. Amazing stuff. I could even understand some of the stuff he was doing/teaching so my reading is paying off already.

    tracked down his book on the UK Amazon site (US doesn't have it) and placed order. I am hooked! Also placed order for the Lucid Dreamer book as it has 5 star reviews from everybody. All saying how brilliant it is. Thanks for your recommendations.

    That's it. Done enough spending for this and next month, and waiting on post for several packages (books and DVDs). Serious stuff this NLP and who knows, maybe I can actually do it one day soon. Sure gonna try. A really perfect match with our Mindplace tools.


    Richard
    Richard, Hong Kong
    richardhk dot com
    ------------------------

  10. Default Re: NLP

    Hi Marisa, Coypu, and all.

    An update on my NLP readings (and learnings) the last three weeks!

    First off, it looks like I need to eat my words ref not buying any Bandler books. Got the 'Trance-formations' out of library and have to say it is a remarkable and very valuable book. An absolute gold-mine of useful information and it will be difficult not to buy. 'Frogs into Princes' on shelf waiting to be read as soon as T-f done.

    Made a hasty comment on the 'Neuro-linguistic Programming for Dummies' book. There ARE the usual pictures in there, just not so many with one per section rather than one per chapter like in early days. I guess Rich Tennant the artist has too many Dummies books to create pics for. The Dummies book is actually a very good read, and despite several comments on Amazon saying it tells little, I have found it to cover most topics (at intro+ level) that you would need. Some areas rather esoteric, but have learnt that is the territory we are in.

    Derren Brown? Well, his book looks great but will not read until after Frogs, but have watched his series 2 DVD several times already. Found that the more I watch, and the more NLP/hypnosis study I have done, the more I can tune into what Derren is doing with his suggestion/etc. A great resource and only 5 pounds on Amazon.co.uk so have ordered his remaining two DVDs in time for Christmas (I hope).

    Lots more reading under way and finding my old interest in hypnosis well and truly fired up.

    Talk more later.
    Richard, Hong Kong
    richardhk dot com
    ------------------------

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