Dont really get anything from Procyon sessions

[Marisa]

I checked out those sessions 2 and 14. I didn't particularly notice anything that stood out in relation to other sessions. But, just one try doesn't say much.

I didn't notice any particular usefulness of 14 for deep breathing or whatever it says. I wonder if the text in the charts about the various programs are just wild guesses. Perhaps based on some study read here or there about a particular frequency, or whatever. I am interested in continuing to test program 14 on this count. However, I think I like a more straightforward approach like the Proteus seemed to have about entraining particular wavelengths. I will have to go into the Procyon programming to get a more straightforward approach.

Actually, I went through each segment in the program looked at the frequency ranges and which frequency was most dominant. This in turn gives us the target frequency. So - no wild guesses.

I'm not sure what you are expecting to get out of a session. If you are too busy trying to analyze the session while it's happening, you are likely to miss out on the purpose of the session ... which would be relaxation.

P14 is a program that is relaxing and regenerating. I find that if I'm feeling fatigued and use this program, mental energy is restored.

The only way you'll know for absolute certainty what the programs are doing for you, if anything at all, is to use an EEG as well. Some people respond better to AVS than others. Because it lacks the EEG aspect, it's not an exact science ... more of a guideline.

Even with the EEG it's still not exact because while, let's say 10 Hz may work really well in bringing Alpha to the forefront for one person, 12 Hz may work better for another.

Another factor is habituation. We need the programs to have some range in them to avoid habituation - which is the brain getting use to one frequency and then basically ignoring it.

Finally, there is the aspect where the person may reach the desired state (i.e. Alpha dominance) but may not stay in that state for more than a few seconds. In a case such as this, the person may not notice any results after one or two uses but perhaps after 10 or 12.

Since we are working with brain waves, many things can change them and one will get best results by doing things that are congruent to the desired state. For example, allowing your body to relax during a session. Letting your mind relax and push away analytical thoughts. There is a time and place for analytical thoughts but not during a session.

On the other hand, there may be uncertain advantages to the various highly variable programs shifting frequencies, colors, tones. There may be no small benefit to variety and engagement that the showiness of these programs provide (or not) They may be fairly random guesses by the makers, but some might be lucky guesses. Also, different users are different so a lucky match might happen.

Actually the programs are quite well thought out. You want the frequencies to shift (for reasons explained above) and you also want to keep the brain from getting bored, though I suppose in a sleep program ... this may not be so bad.

You appear to be approaching the use of the machine with a critical attitude which I find a bit confusing since you still have your machine and are continuing to use it and at times seem to enjoy it. I would think that if you really aren't finding any benefit from the machine, you would just take it back and be done with it. Then again, maybe I'm misunderstanding you and this is just your way of getting to know the machine and the technology?

But for more stable experimentation, I will need to make my own programs that hold frequency color and tone stable.

While I appreciate your enthusiasm, I think you are putting the cart before the horse. It may be helpful for you to first learn a bit more about how this technology works and how brain waves work. This would really help you to develop more meaningful experiments and if you are serious about experimenting - you would probably benefit from owing an EEG machine.

A "stable" tone would only give you results for a very small time and you wouldn't really know for sure unless you also used an EEG. Some changes can occur and you not notice it because they are subtle. Sometimes they are fleeting.

Color has some impact but it's not as important as the actual frequencies themselves. Also, keep in mind that when two colors are mixed together a third color is the result - for example, green + red = amber. Red + blue + green = white (usually).

Currently, I am using the night voyage sessions in the daytime, in seated crosslegged position in the day. They do not make me sleepy but do seem to contribute a calming effect which is useful in meditation. I am used to staying awake in the midst of most kinds of experience so this might explain why sleepiness is not an issue using these sessions in an awake mode.

Brain waves are funny things. Some people's brains are wired differently and what affects the mainstream one way, will affect them another way. Take ADHD brains, for example, stimulation (SMR/Beta) relaxes them and helps them focus where as someone with an anxiety disorder - Beta would irritate them.

M.

[Kamo]

"Actually, I went through each segment in the program looked at the frequency ranges and which frequency was most dominant. This in turn gives us the target frequency. So - no wild guesses. "

If you look closely at what I said I was referring to the TEXT describing the effects of sessions. So if it says "good for deep breathing and muscle relaxation" (i dont have the chart in front of me) this may or may not be a guess. The dominant frequencies might be associated with certain bodily functions in some studies that might be motivating the descriptive text, or it might just be a wild guess. We have no way of knowing. Even if there is some study, it is a far cry from a study to an established causal relation between a certain brain frequency and and a certain effect. I would think most people who look into eeg and brainwave entrainment would come to the same conclusion, but some are very faithful and eager. Nothing wrong with that if you get the most effects that way and you dont ask questions or study too deeply into the science.

"If you are too busy trying to analyze the session while it's happening, you are likely to miss out on the purpose of the session ... which would be relaxation."

Just because someone is thinking about this while posting on a message board does not mean anything one way or another while using the machine. I do not write on the message board while using the machine, mostly because I cant be sure about my spelling while wearing the ganzframes.


"The only way you'll know for absolute certainty what the programs are doing for you, if anything at all, is to use an EEG as well."

That is not true at all. A thorough education in brain science will for most people, as noted above, show that not a lot is certain about what brainwaves mean. I do know the science and have an "EEG machine," as you put it.

"Even with the EEG it's still not exact because while, let's say 10 Hz may work really well in bringing Alpha to the forefront for one person, 12 Hz may work better for another."

oops, maybe you realize this.

"Another factor is habituation. We need the programs to have some range in them to avoid habituation - which is the brain getting use to one frequency and then basically ignoring it."

this is exactly what I was saying about various colors and transitions in the programs. They are all way too complex to make any assumptions about other than the variety itself may be of benefit in keeping the mind interested. Perhaps my way of writing is not clear or something.


"You appear to be approaching the use of the machine with a critical attitude which I find a bit confusing since you still have your machine and are continuing to use it and at times seem to enjoy it. I would think that if you really aren't finding any benefit from the machine, you would just take it back and be done with it. Then again, maybe I'm misunderstanding you and this is just your way of getting to know the machine and the technology? "

Yes, I dont see any contradiction between analyzing and thinking about this and using it. I have many years experience studying my mind and am facile enough to use it for many things. Sometimes I think, sometimes I dream, sometimes I relax. I can use my mind for many things. To me, a critical attitude is a good thing, but I suppose not everyone believes this. Still, I expect some of your users are interested in science and they also like to investigate. Investigation can lead to a more solid and stable faith than faith alone. That is the value my type puts in it, but not everyone has tried that approach out so they dont know how it works. however I have noticed other posters on your forum who have obviously investigated your device with a critical attitude and continue to be enthusiastic about it.

To me, the only way to know for sure about an effect is through personal experience, not eeg readings. EEG measurements can be a reference point, but of no greater value than asking another user what they are experiencing, which is precisely what we were doing. Perhaps we are to accept the written descriptions on the manual chart as definitive, but I dont really think they are, and some of them, like "good for deep breathing" etc. seem to me to be wild guesses. Seem to be. I would be happy to know if there is any scientific basis for these descriptions. I would also be happy to know of peoples' personal experiences. This information can be of limited value with navigating this machine and its programs, at least equal to the textual descriptions of what the programs are officially supposed to be for.

thanks,

Kamo

[Marisa]

If you look closely at what I said I was referring to the TEXT describing the effects of sessions. So if it says "good for deep breathing and muscle relaxation" (i dont have the chart in front of me) this may or may not be a guess. The dominant frequencies might be associated with certain bodily functions in some studies that might be motivating the descriptive text, or it might just be a wild guess. We have no way of knowing.

Sorry, I misunderstood what you were saying. The manual says, regarding P14: "Ideal for use with deep breathing and muscle awareness exercises." The manual is just making a suggestion for what one may want to do with this program since the program is relaxing and deep breathing also helps with relaxation ...

You are correct, there is no particular brainwave frequency that causes deep breathing, though the act of deep breathing itself may correlate to a particular state of mind and set of frequencies.

Even if there is some study, it is a far cry from a study to an established causal relation between a certain brain frequency and and a certain effect.

There have been studies that take notice of what someones EEG is while they are in various states. Sleep studies, for example, have made correlations between the various stages of sleep and group of frequencies. It's not going to be a specific frequency, it will be in one of the ranges (Alpha, SMR etc.). Other studies conducted have provided us with information regarding what each of the groups of frequencies correlate to what states of mind. These references you'll find in a variety of places and text books.

If a study mentions a particular frequency, which some have, it is just a reporting of what results they got on that particular day with those particular subjects. It's relevant in that the results correlated within a range and this gives us a lot of useful information on states of mind and brainwave frequencies. If one was to replicate the study, they would probably get similar results within the range of frequencies (Alpha, Beta etc.) instead of a specific frequency.

I would think most people who look into eeg and brainwave entrainment would come to the same conclusion, but some are very faithful and eager. Nothing wrong with that if you get the most effects that way and you dont ask questions or study too deeply into the science.

I haven't come across any legitimate independent studies that do this. I've seen "studies" make some interesting and sometimes questionable claims. Those would fall under pseudoscience and they appear legitimate because there are bits of truth in their claims or their claims or based on bits of truth.

"If you are too busy trying to analyze the session while it's happening, you are likely to miss out on the purpose of the session ... which would be relaxation."

Just because someone is thinking about this while posting on a message board does not mean anything one way or another while using the machine. I do not write on the message board while using the machine, mostly because I cant be sure about my spelling while wearing the ganzframes.

LOL Ya, that would be a bit bone-headed wouldn't it. lol When you mentioned that you weren't getting anything out of the sessions you listed. I was under the impression that you were analyzing the sessions and what was happening to you during that session, which could create the results or lack of results you got. If you are experiencing the session and afterward analyzing it, then I would look for other reasons, which may very well end up that those particular sessions just don't work for you.

What may be interesting to look at is if a group of sessions didn't have any effect on you. For example, if all the Alpha/Theta sessions left you in the same state in which you were when you entered the session. That may be a bit difficult to determine but it would be interesting nevertheless. It may very well be that you don't get results after the first few sessions but begin to with subsequent sessions. It's kind of like when you first go to the gym, you may not notice a difference in your body after one work out or even five but after ten you start noticing a difference.

"The only way you'll know for absolute certainty what the programs are doing for you, if anything at all, is to use an EEG as well."

That is not true at all. A thorough education in brain science will for most people, as noted above, show that not a lot is certain about what brainwaves mean. I do know the science and have an "EEG machine," as you put it.

I did say "absolute" certainty. Just to be clear, we are not talking about what brainwaves mean, we are talking about correlations between brainwaves and various groups of frequencies. Changing those frequencies and making one group more dominant than the other and staying there - ah, now there is where things get a bit more fuzzy because many things can cause brainwaves to change. AVS is a tool that can cause a change in state of mind and subsequent brainwave activity. The key word here is that it's only a tool, not an equation.

P.S. I'm glad you have an EEG. I look forward to hearing more about what you are discovering about yourself and AVS.

"Even with the EEG it's still not exact because while, let's say 10 Hz may work really well in bringing Alpha to the forefront for one person, 12 Hz may work better for another."

oops, maybe you realize this.

LOL oops, maybe I do.

"Another factor is habituation. We need the programs to have some range in them to avoid habituation - which is the brain getting use to one frequency and then basically ignoring it."

this is exactly what I was saying about various colors and transitions in the programs. They are all way too complex to make any assumptions about other than the variety itself may be of benefit in keeping the mind interested. Perhaps my way of writing is not clear or something.

It's the frequencies that matter most, color and transitions are there for other reasons such as mentioned above.

Yes, I dont see any contradiction

Sorry, this sentence just made me laugh. You can see where it is funny considering the context don't you? Okay, back to the conversation.

between analyzing and thinking about this and using it. I have many years experience studying my mind and am facile enough to use it for many things.

The contradiction is/was in your attitude. Sometimes you talk as if you think the machine is crap and sometimes you talk as if you actually like the machine. While it may be analytical, it's biased by your attitude. There is a difference between analytical and critical. Critical is biased, analytical isn't.

Sometimes I think, sometimes I dream, sometimes I relax. I can use my mind for many things. To me, a critical attitude is a good thing, but I suppose not everyone believes this.

I appreciate a good, analytical mind.

Still, I expect some of your users are interested in science and they also like to investigate. Investigation can lead to a more solid and stable faith than faith alone. That is the value my type puts in it, but not everyone has tried that approach out so they dont know how it works. however I have noticed other posters on your forum who have obviously investigated your device with a critical attitude and continue to be enthusiastic about it.

I see value in what you bring to the forum. No question there.

To me, the only way to know for sure about an effect is through personal experience, not eeg readings. EEG measurements can be a reference point, but of no greater value than asking another user what they are experiencing, which is precisely what we were doing.

That's true but it isn't research, it's personal exploration. I misunderstood, I though you were interested in conducting research. I now see that this is more about your journey and your experience with AVS. That you are looking at the programs and are experimenting on what works and doesn't work for you. It's important and relevant - maybe more-so now.

Perhaps we are to accept the written descriptions on the manual chart as definitive, but I dont really think they are, and some of them, like "good for deep breathing" etc. seem to me to be wild guesses.

It's just a guideline. That's all.

Seem to be. I would be happy to know if there is any scientific basis for these descriptions. I would also be happy to know of peoples' personal experiences. This information can be of limited value with navigating this machine and its programs, at least equal to the textual descriptions of what the programs are officially supposed to be for.

I'm not sure I understand what scientific basis you are looking for? I'm sure you've seen the information that correlates the groups of frequencies to various states and subsequent bodily functions. Since experience is subjective, I don't see how a specific description could be written that applies to everyone. I can see a general description, like a sign at the beginning of a path that lets you know the general direction of your journey but what you see along that journey, how you feel and what you experience is going to be somewhat unique.

Anything that involves perception is always, always going to be subjective.

M.

[Kamo]

I think the problem is we don't speak the same language. The definition of "critical" is just the tip of the iceberg on that. While you seem to get some of what I am saying there seem to be just as many departures in your latest message that any attempt to clear it up will just cause more confusion. So it's not working out so well. I am both scientifically and personally interested in AVS and that probably contributes to the confusion.

So, just to be clear on one thing that seems to be troubling you: I like the procyon very much and except the first use only I have seen very palpable effects on most sessions, enough to over-ride, in my mind, any variables that apply from session to session. Which proves to me that there are significant effects. Although I can't know how other people are using it, I use it in a way that is partly like meditation. I found the first time that my habitual way of meditating had to alter to become more passive, but after that here is a highlight of some effects.

1. Periods of calm after effects

2. Occasionally shifting during sessions into a dreamlike, meditation-like vision state that was awash in color, and one time even became an experience of moving through deep space with curtains of stardust passing by that was very beautiful, like meditation visions.

3. Calm and sleepiness and drowsing in the sleep programs while prone.

4. For a couple days I used the machine's alpha-theta range programs for 2-3 hours a day or more and had lasting effects throughout the day, ease in the body, and ease in staying present with my experience. In yoga class, the janitor had to practically sweep me off the floor I was so still on the floor at the end of class.

There is more I forget, and I expect this list to go on in the future, but of course people should understand that these are a description of just the peaks.

all the best,
Kamo

[Marisa]

I think the problem is we don't speak the same language. The definition of "critical" is just the tip of the iceberg on that. While you seem to get some of what I am saying there seem to be just as many departures in your latest message that any attempt to clear it up will just cause more confusion. So it's not working out so well.

Alrighty then. I'll politely step out of this conversation.

Peace out.

M.