Addictions, The Brain and AVS

Dear Gordon, Marisa, ...

Thanks for the info. I was actually wondering recently about the brain-waves involved in love-making myself recently. Me and my friend Sara have even joked about the fact that you can have multi-user sessions with extra light-frames! I must be honest and say that, I have had some amazing "highs" on the Procyon.

I would also be interested in how light and sound compares to, say, drug and meditative states, in terms of well my brain really must be releasing massive amounts of serotonin during sessions because I sometimes get so high! I know AVE is similar to meditation in many ways, but there are such a range of light and sound combinations, it's hard to say exactly what state one has gone in to sometimes! When I borrowed out my machine and didnt get to use it for over a week, i noticed that I had the worst week in a very long time, but the weeks before that --with the machine--i was constantly "on top of the world."

It made me wonder, as good as the Procyon seems at helping one keep a consistently positive and focused state with regular usage...is there some kind of withdrawal effect?

Jamie :)

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Originally Posted by indigoladuk

Dear Gordon, Marisa, ...

Thanks for the info. I was actually wondering recently about the brain-waves involved in love-making myself recently. Me and my friend Sara have even joked about the fact that you can have multi-user sessions with extra light-frames! I must be honest and say that, I have had some amazing "highs" on the Procyon.

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Nothing like getting tangled in wires. ;)

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I would also be interested in how light and sound compares to, say, drug and meditative states, in terms of well my brain really must be releasing massive amounts of serotonin during sessions because I sometimes get so high!

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I believe Serotonin is released in the Alpha group of frequencies, while the bodies natural opiates are released in the Delta range. Two different highs.

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I know AVE is similar to meditation in many ways, but there are such a range of light and sound combinations, it's hard to say exactly what state one has gone in to sometimes! When I borrowed out my machine and didnt get to use it for over a week, i noticed that I had the worst week in a very long time, but the weeks before that --with the machine--i was constantly "on top of the world."

It made me wonder, as good as the Procyon seems at helping one keep a consistently positive and focused state with regular usage...is there some kind of withdrawal effect?

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It's an interesting question you bring up regarding machine withdrawal because it makes me think of a bunch of situations or causes that may make a person feel this way. One of them could be that the machine helped your brain function better in some way and you simply miss the effect, another is that your brain could have problems generating alpha waves on its own and needs more entrainment time. The third could tie into addiction and dopamine release, which doesn't really have anything to do with the AVS machine but it may tie into other things.

Back to entrainment: Until your brain learns how to get to the desired state on its own (which will happen through entrainment) the effects of the machine will wear off and the brain may resort to the old "default" state. You'll find that with time, the effects will last longer and you will even be able to access the desired state at will.

Keep in mind that what you think about also affects your brainwaves (and biochemistry) so if you want your brainwaves to remain in that "happy" place, you must also keeps your thoughts positive.

M.

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Originally Posted by Marisa

It's an interesting question you bring up regarding machine withdrawal because it makes me think of a bunch of situations or causes that may make a person feel this way. One of them could be that the machine helped your brain function better in some way and you simply miss the effect, another is that your brain could have problems generating alpha waves on its own and needs more entrainment time. The third could tie into addiction and dopamine release, which doesn't really have anything to do with the AVS machine but it may tie into other things.

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What sort of effects are there?

Dear Marisa,

In response to you're interesting reply, I know that I can easily produce alpha and theta being an experienced meditator. I can also see/feel the different qualities between various frequencies. However, I have mainly been using the machine for concentration and learning and having been diagnosed 'adhd', of course my challenge is sustaining not alpha or indeed any lower frequncies, but beta-gamma for sustained concentration. So I guess that was what my brain missed and why things seemed to get worse for me without the machine! hehe

Within a couple days of using a Hemi-Sync cd for adhd, I actually has the experience of walking down the road but not having my mp3 player with me. I remembere the tune, however, and felt my brain wake up--mainly in the frontal lobes. hence it doesn't seem to take long for the effects to anchor or for me to access the desired state without assistance, altho i sometimes forget the tune! lol

By constantly playing concentration freqs (music only) while learning and machine befoe and after learning, I believe I am over time anchoring my brain to trigger these frequencies during those specific periods?

Hope ur having a good christmas holiday,
Hugs, Jamie :)

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Originally Posted by G-ice

What sort of effects are there?

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I'm not sure I understand your question. What sort of effects are there concerning what?

M.

Hi Jamie,

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Originally Posted by indigoladuk

Dear Marisa,

In response to you're interesting reply, I know that I can easily produce alpha and theta being an experienced meditator. I can also see/feel the different qualities between various frequencies. However, I have mainly been using the machine for concentration and learning and having been diagnosed 'adhd', of course my challenge is sustaining not alpha or indeed any lower frequncies, but beta-gamma for sustained concentration. So I guess that was what my brain missed and why things seemed to get worse for me without the machine! hehe

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If you have ADHD, then your brain tends to stay in a theta state, which is why you have problems concentrating. You are on the right track using Beta based programs. SMR (12 - 15 Hz) is best for ADHD. If you do too much high Beta/Gamma, you run the risk of creating an anxious state. Short bursts of High Beta/Gamma are good in a program though.

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Within a couple days of using a Hemi-Sync cd for adhd, I actually has the experience of walking down the road but not having my mp3 player with me. I remembere the tune, however, and felt my brain wake up--mainly in the frontal lobes. hence it doesn't seem to take long for the effects to anchor or for me to access the desired state without assistance, altho i sometimes forget the tune! lol

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That's excellent. :cheers:

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By constantly playing concentration freqs (music only) while learning and machine befoe and after learning, I believe I am over time anchoring my brain to trigger these frequencies during those specific periods?

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Music only? Your Hemi-Sync cd?

If you are referring to the Hemi sync cd, I have no idea what frequencies they target or how their cds are made so I can't really comment.

Can you over do it? Yes, if your program is geared for high Beta/Gamma - you can end up feeling anxious, restless, unsettled. SMR/Alpha are best for learning.

If you feel good after what you are doing, then I would say there is no problem. If you don't feel good, then cut back the session or try a session with a different group of frequencies such as SMR (low Beta).

Did that answer your question?

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Hope ur having a good christmas holiday,
Hugs, Jamie :)

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Having a great time! Playing some "Rock Band" with my neice and hanging out with my man and beasty dog that I should have named "Marley" after the dog in the movie! :eusa_dance:

M.

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Originally Posted by Marisa

I'm not sure I understand your question. What sort of effects are there concerning what?

M.

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Regarding to the machine withdrawal effects, bien s?r.

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Originally Posted by G-ice

Regarding to the machine withdrawal effects, bien s?r.

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As far as addictions go, a person can become addicted to anything. Just as some people become addicted to shopping, gambling, exercise or even health, it is possible that someone could become addicted to using an AVS machine. Using the machine does not cause addiction but a person prone to addictive behavior may find themselves "addicted" to anything that makes them feel good. I'm not even sure "addicted" is the right word as the word "desire" could also be what one feels about using the machine.

If there were to be any feelings associated with the AVS machine and withdrawal, it would be a desire to use the machine again because it makes you feel good. Other than that desire, there will be no physical symptoms of withdrawal like there would be with a substance such as alcohol where withdrawal can cause seizures, headaches, shakes and other related physical symptoms.

I have read (from quite a few sources) that the AVS machines can help people over come addictions because people who have addictions tend to not produce enough Alpha brain waves. AVS, EEG Neurofeedback and biofeedback are methods that help the person's brain learn how to produce more Alpha wave frequencies. These frequencies are associated with feeling good and satisfied, which usually underlies the reason for addiction in the first place. The range of frequencies associated to Alpha waves are also the frequencies associated with the production of serotonin, which is something that is also lacking in people with addictions.

There are some other biological/biochemical factors associated with addiction but I do not know if an AVS machine would have any direct impact on those. Perhaps indirectly - when you feel good, your brain produces biochemicals that continue this state, which in turn helps mood, which in turn influences your brain waves.

When you feel bad, other biological functions come into play. Dopamine triggers a drive toward seeking that which will make you feel better. The survival part of your brain also goes into over drive causing the person to seek relief. In addictions, the brain mistakes using the substance or engaging in a certain behavior with survival and that sets up an unconscious false belief that the person must engage in a particular activity or consume a particular substance or they will die. Since the belief is unconscious, until the person becomes aware of what is going on, they will feel driven to consume or act in the way that they believe will make them feel better.

As I mentioned earlier, the dynamics of the brain and addiction are quite interesting ... or so I think.

M.

Dear Marisa

Thank you for the interesting explanation regards 'addiction'.

Regarding effects of high Beta/gamma, i find that it actually makes me feel very relaxed rather than anxious, although my usual programme tends to be Hemi-Sync alpha-high beta for ADHD with programme 11 on the Procyon (which is low to high Beta). I guess the alpha keeps me chilled.

However I do find that the use of Gamma can be a bit too much for me sometimes, but is certainly a very good choice if I feel tired or just woke up. It tends to wake me up quicker than alpha-beta! I use Alpha-Beta mostly, but Gamma for maths as Gamma is apparently better than Beta/alpha for math.

Best combination for study, including maths, I would say would be Alpha-Beta-Gamma, to add the relaxed serotonin feeling to one's state, but the Gamma recording (Kelly Howell, BrainSyncs 'High Focus' doesnt have alpha on it sadly).

Yes ADHD people tend to be stuck in theta in the frontal lobes especially, me included, but I have trained my self to various relaxation states through meditation. I also did diamond way and managed to achieve 'awakened mind' in record time (i.e. delta-theta-alpha-beta-gamma). I and other people did observe that i became less fidgity and relaxed, but I had no evidence of improvements in concentration etc. It is hard to say. Maybe i should do those meditations more, but I find the use of Procyon and Hemi-Sync a sure, reliable and easy way to get me ready for learning etc. I can feel my brain reach high beta and makes me feel awake and concentrated like a laser :)

Ummm...i have been wondering...when you play say a hemi-sync cd and select a programme which roughly matches, how does that compare to, say, using audio strobe or Procyon's binaurals which are of course synchronised to the lights?

If you have different frequencies of sound compared to light i guess both light and sound still add to the synchronisation of the brain, but you end up with a more complex set of frequencies right? In other words, having lights at one frequency and sound at another is like having a binaural cd with various frequencies simultaneously?

Glad your having a good time

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Originally Posted by indigoladuk

Ummm...i have been wondering...when you play say a hemi-sync cd and select a programme which roughly matches, how does that compare to, say, using audio strobe or Procyon's binaurals which are of course synchronised to the lights?

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It depends on what is on the hemi-sync cd, which program you choose or which Audio Strobe Cd you use. There really is no way to answer this question because what may work best for someone else, may not work best for you. The Procyon programs are written to target specific ranges of brainwaves to create a corresponding result. An Alpha based program will bring Alpha frequencies into a more dominant position where the user can experience some or all of the Alpha effects.

I can not speak for Audiostrobe as we do not create the cds, nor can I speak for Hemisync cds since we do not make those either. Because we do not make them, we do not know how they were made and/or what groups of frequencies or specific frequencies were used.

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If you have different frequencies of sound compared to light i guess both light and sound still add to the synchronisation of the brain, but you end up with a more complex set of frequencies right? In other words, having lights at one frequency and sound at another is like having a binaural cd with various frequencies simultaneously?

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If your brain is exposed to more than one frequency (at a time) it will either create a binaural beat or it will align to one of the frequencies somewhere in the middle of the mess. If your lights are at one frequency and the sound is at another, your brain will probably choose one of the frequencies to align with or it may choose something in the middle. I do not believe that a binaural effect can be created this way.

M.

Dear Marisa,

This is really interesting. My intuition was telling me that my brain could synchronise to the binaurals and the lights at the same time, so that part of me was entrained to the sound frequency and 'another' part the lights. To me, this is no stranger than being in a room and experiencing a range of frequencies, e.g. from the colour of the wall, to the movement on the computer screen, and the thoughts in my head. They're all at different frequencies, but it isn't experienced as a 'mess' or 'chaos' as such, it's just all adding to the whole picture. Sometimes, if i put the wrong lights with the wrong music/brainwaves (well wrong for me anyway) I sense the clash and it jolts me from relaxation. If they, at least subjectively, match, then the feeling is of harmony. Are u saying that underneath that feeling of harmony is a energetic chaos or are you saying my brain will choose to focus on one frequency (the sound say) but not the lights?

I find this question fascinating for some reason, and cannot see why my brain wouldnt follow the hemi-sync and follow the lights as well. Maybe it depends on the person, but I would of thought the brain was quite capable of doing both. Anyway, thanks, this has got me thinking....

*Hugs* Jamie

:)

Marisa

Just realised... With binaural beats I understand how the binaural is created by two different frequencies which are then synthesised to create the Frequency Following Response, e.g. 540hz - 500hz = 40hz. However, with the lights, I don't know as much about how they work. My thought is that the lights are simpler than sound. That photic stimulation is simply the same frequency in each eye which causes FFR and synchronisation without the little calculation in the Reticular Activating System.

Hi Jamie,

I'm thinking that you may be confusing brain wave frequencies with perception? Even though the two are related, we do not perceive in brain wave frequencies, though brain wave frequencies are a translation (sort of) of what we perceive. BWF are a measurement of a state of mind at any given time. In other words, they are not our thoughts but they are affected by our thoughts.

At any given time, all BWF are present in your head. Depending on what you are doing, one of the ranges of frequencies should be more dominant than the others. Metaphorically, the other frequencies are like the back up band and the dominant frequency is like the lead singer.

Your brain waves will have fluctuations, especially while you are awake. Your dominant brain wave may be in the Beta Range but it's also possible for Alpha to spike momentarily, especially if something makes you feel good.

Having said that - bombarding yourself with a variety of frequencies does not build mental acuity. At that point, your brain will likely filter out a bunch of it and may or may not be influenced by the out side frequencies.

This is something that you can not know for sure by intuition. The only way to really know what happens to your brain when it's exposed to multiple frequencies is by EEG. The rest is just guess work.

I like that you are thinking about what things affect you and how. I think it's great that you are becoming even more self aware of your thoughts and mood. Powerful things can come with this knowledge.

:eusa_dance:
M.

"I like that you are thinking about what things affect you and how. I think it's great that you are becoming even more self aware of your thoughts and mood. Powerful things can come with this knowledge."

Well said, Marisa. In addition to the direct effectiveness of AVS/BWE it is certainly an excellent point of focus for taking a good look at yourself.

Cheers,
Craig

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Originally Posted by indigoladuk

Marisa
Just realised... With binaural beats I understand how the binaural is created by two different frequencies which are then synthesised to create the Frequency Following Response, e.g. 540hz - 500hz = 40hz. However, with the lights, I don't know as much about how they work. My thought is that the lights are simpler than sound. That photic stimulation is simply the same frequency in each eye which causes FFR and synchronisation without the little calculation in the Reticular Activating System.

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Remember too that you need the differences in audio frequencies for the brain to artificially create the 40Hz or other frequency that is 'outside' of your normal hearing range. That's why it's a binaural beat, and not direct frequency. Drumming and such can create similar beats.

The visual frequency range is not constrained the same way, so just flashing the appropriate frequencies goes straight in, unedited. :eek:

As Marisa and Craig note. Spend time becoming aware of your own body and mind as meditators would.

Happy New Year to you and all. :occasion1:

Dear Marisa,

I would like to learn more about the science behind this, can you recommend any good books on how this stuff may or may not work?

Good point Marisa, but I was thinking your (or mine anyway, hehe) could follow the binaural produced by the Hemi-Sync, but the light stimulation definitely seems to make the cds ten times more effective. Of course this may be due to something other than FFR.

I have heard on this site, and elsewhere, that you can only effectively have one frequency for binaural, yet many producers of binaural make recordings incorporating a range of frequencies. My own opinion is that the brain CAN resonate and follow multiple binaural beats. So I assumed if it could do that, it could also follow the lights even if they are at a different speed to the binaural.

You're right, tho, I tend to over-complicate matters...and of course only a EEG would tell. I will definitely be getting myself one someday! lol

Best wishes,
Jamie :)

Richard,

Thanks for the interesting info. What do u mean when the lights? go in 'unedited'? I've been a meditator since I was 5, but thank you for the reminder as I've done less of that over the past few months before christmas..well, coincidentally enough, since purchasing my Procyon! But have done more chanting and meditation and reiki with friends in the past few weeks which is good.

Procyon and brainwaves for me, is a lot of fun and very practical, and is more for my adhd and learning rather than deep insightful meditation--after flashing lights and sound is a bit over-stimulating, whatever frequency it's on!--but I really need to rely on it less and get some daily insight meditation practise again. Thanks for the reminder.

Just about to check your cool soundign website! :) Wishing you the best for 2009 likewise

Jamie

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Originally Posted by indigoladuk

Dear Marisa,

I would like to learn more about the science behind this, can you recommend any good books on how this stuff may or may not work?

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There are no good books specifically on light and sound (AVS) but there are a few good ones on EEG Neurofeedback, from which you can learn related information regarding the groups of frequencies and the brain.

On the Mindplace Support Site under reference, there are some good articles worth reading. I recently wrote an updated guide on the technology but haven't posted it yet because I'm still waiting for Robert to review it. I may post it as a draft and update it as needed. Check the library section of this forum as well.

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Good point Marisa, but I was thinking your (or mine anyway, hehe) could follow the binaural produced by the Hemi-Sync, but the light stimulation definitely seems to make the cds ten times more effective. Of course this may be due to something other than FFR.

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That would require me knowing how they programmed their cds, which information is not available. I've never tried the Hemi-sync products as I've gotten the results I want with my Proteus and Procyon. Sorry, not much help here.

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I have heard on this site, and elsewhere, that you can only effectively have one frequency for binaural, yet many producers of binaural make recordings incorporating a range of frequencies. My own opinion is that the brain CAN resonate and follow multiple binaural beats. So I assumed if it could do that, it could also follow the lights even if they are at a different speed to the binaural.

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The brain can follow multiple binaural beats but not at the same time. If the brain is exposed to multiple frequencies at the same time, it will likely pick one of them to entrain to and ignore the rest.

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You're right, tho, I tend to over-complicate matters...and of course only a EEG would tell. I will definitely be getting myself one someday! lol

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It's good to be curious and explore the technology in what ever direction interests you. Unfortunately, good information on the subject takes some investigation. My rule of thumb is to look for more than one source for information, although sometimes you'll find a group of writings that reference the same source and depending on what that source is ... also depends on how good or accurate the information is. Be skeptical.

M.

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Originally Posted by indigoladuk

Richard,

Thanks for the interesting info. What do u mean when the lights? go in 'unedited'? I've been a meditator since I was 5, but thank you for the reminder as I've done less of that over the past few months before christmas..well, coincidentally enough, since purchasing my Procyon! But have done more chanting and meditation and reiki with friends in the past few weeks which is good. ... ...
--but I really need to rely on it less and get some daily insight meditation practise again. Thanks for the reminder. ... ...
Jamie

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Hi Jamie,

What I was trying to say was that for binaural beats, the brain is sort of 'editing' the incoming sound and creating a brand new signal/experience. Not such a good word thinking about it again, as on the visual side you could argue same for the brain 'editing' the two or three coloured (colored) light sources and creating a kalaidoscopic end result we are familiar with. :)

Had better give some more deep thought to what I was thinking, as the audio and visual processes are quite different. We don't get a symphony of sound from the audio signals, for example. :eek:

Ulitimately we would all like to be mindful of everything all the time, but life needs us to survive, so a luxury most of the time. So I see the Light&Sound machines having a role to help us make the most of limited downtime to enter and explore different levels of consciousness.

Hey Guys :)

This is so interesting. I am so curious about the multiple frequency question though. I like to remain sceptical, but i also am quite intuitive and my experience with multi-frequencies apparently confirms the claim. For example, when I have listened to multi-frequency binaural (gamma-beta-alpha-theta-delta) I have experienced a state very similar to that during Buddhist meditation when I had my EEG taken. I achieved in record time this brain pattern called 'awakened mind' (which is a balance of freq's across the spectrum resembling a slender hill or bell-curve). So if the multi-freq binaurals don't work as such, then I can only guess that it was a placebo experience? Which gets even more interesting, because if I was to have an EEG whilst listening to such a recording, well how would one work out if it was the binaurals or not? lol

What gets me, is that brain-sync (Kelly Howell), Hemi-Sync AND Anna Wise all have created multi-freq binaurals and made such a claim. But then, Kelly Howell/Brain-Sync (as much as I love her meditations n music)...still sell "subliminal" recordings for which there is apparently no evidence!

A little confused but open minded / sceptical!

RICHARD
Thanks for your further info, but I still don't get it! Sorry. Great website by the way...

MARISA
I'm always researching this stuff. I've applied for uni to study psychology, wanting to be an educational psychologist/ But of course I have a fascination with mindware in general. I read articles at Hemi-Sync, they have a really cool one by one of their scientists going into some depth on the hemi-sync--aka entrainment process--but nothing mentioning multiple binaural! Lol

Any further articles or info would be greatly appreciated! :)

I know what u mean about going with what most people say. I also think the truth often ends up being somewhere in the middle. But also, we just sometimes don't know --yet--or indeed all possibilities--because the research just hasn't been done and we haven't got "there" yet. Oh, and there are always exceptions to the rule...

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Originally Posted by indigoladuk

RICHARD
Thanks for your further info, but I still don't get it! Sorry. Great website by the way...

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Okay, let's see if I can give it a go? A binaural beat is actually a perceived frequency created by the brain when either the ears (or eyes) are directly exposed to two different frequencies within a certain range. In order for the binaural effect to happen, each ear (or eye) must receive a frequency directly - meaning that the two frequencies can not happen someone in the room. It has to be one frequency exposed to one ear and another to the other ear.

Because of how sound and light is processed, I'm pretty sure that exposing the eyes to one set of frequencies and the ears to another will not create a binaural effect.

I do know that you can create a binaural effect by light but the key to binaural is how the frequencies are delivered to the brain. If frequencies are given in an indirect way - through speakers in the room or strobe lights, a binaural effect will not occur.

Here's a pretty good article that explains how binaural beats work:

http://brain.web-us.com/thescience.htm & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaural_beats

Here's a link to some other research in case you haven't discovered this yet: http://www.mindplacesupport.com/foru...read.php?t=238

M.

well said!