What kind of machine should I buy

Hi all


I'm a newbie to this website and to the mind machines, therefore I would appreciate if someone can give me some advices/hints.

1. I haven't decided yet what kind of machine should I buy, but knowing the fact that the Kasina has the highest number of reviews and customers, I'm inclined to give it a try, but before I do that I'd like to know if someone here had tested the Mind Alive David Alert Pro Light Therapy Sound Machine, and what is the the difference between those 2? I would really appreciate if someone can take the time and do a side to side comparison, based on its own experience. Specs wise looks like the David's machine comes with "CES" (Cranial Electrotherapy Stimulation) but it's almost double the price for it.
2. In your opinion does it worth to buy a device that has CES capabilities?
3. Is there any place/store etc. where someone can go and test those machines out before making a decision?
4. I'm not familiar with binaural beats or other kinds of beats/sounds that those machines can produce because I never used a such machine, but I'm curious what is the difference between the sounds produced by those devices, compared with whatever is available for free on youtube or even on android apps like Brain waves or Binaural Beats

I'd like to mention that I wanna purchase the machine because I want to get into deeper states of meditation and I heard that practitioners or even enlightened masters had recommended them.

Thank you!

Hello and thank you for your questions. I hope I can be of assistance. I must say upfront that since you are on a MindPlace support forum you are going to get a somewhat biased point of view. However, I was a consumer of mind machines long before I was involved with the industry so I understand the questions that people have when making a decision.

MindPlace devices have always encouraged an open ecosystem. What this means is that we always provided free session editors, AudioStrobe decoder, audio inputs, and supported top third party software titles like NeuroProgrammer or Mind Workstation, etc.

Mindalive devices do not take this approach. They support a core number of sessions with an editor available for purchase and no third party support. You better really consider if all of your current and future needs will be met with this device as expandability is not at the forefront.

The Kasina especially expands the number of session options to a huge degree. It supports our exclusive SpectraStrobe full color system, AudioStrobe which is a 2 color system but on the Kasina it is mappable to any pair of the light colors plus color mixtures with random cycles. There is also a built in mind machine format for sessions of a similar type that you would find on the David machines, which includes the full factory content of our discontinued mind machine the Sirius. The editor is free and very simple to use and is in active development.

All of the content on the Kasina is playable from the onboard SD card which makes it infinitely expandable. If you want more storage just buy another card (16gb cards are about $8 these days). The Kasina also has a ColorOrgan feature where you can put any mp3 on the card and the lights can react to the sound.

If for some reason you already have a large music library on a computer or other device, you can play into the Kasina either as USB audio (48khz digital quality) or connect an audio cable from a smartphone etc.

All of the above is what future proofing and expandability mean. I only briefly mentioned the third party software titles like NP3 and Mind Workstation but they are the gold standard for entrainment sessions and fully support the Kasina with full integration in the interface.

You also get the benefit of this forum and passionate personnel who strive to answer questions and share knowledge (hello, I'm one of those people)

As regards CES, honestly, you would be better off to add a Foc.us tDCS device. The developer version for sale now. along with the Kasina would still end up at about the same price as the David but have a much more configurable and robust system overall. We don't support this device directly but I am a user and will answer some questions about it without going into any medical applications.

You may or may not want electrical stimulation as a beginner. It is an area which you want to do research to make a more informed decision if it is right for you. An AVS device (what the Kasina and other mind machines are called) will keep you busy for many months by itself.

On question 3, honestly, most people these days just buy the device at Amazon and try it out for 30 days then return it if they don't like it. You have taken a wise step by interacting with us first on the forum as during this period and beyond we will provide help for the best experience.

On 4, much of the binaural and other entrainment audio available online is using NeuroProgrammer or Mind Workstation. Those software titles will give you all the tools you need to produce your own with dozen of example sessions already included. We also support free editors like GNaural. So in terms of difference, there is none really at least with core technologies used. Each type of entrainment audio has a specific mathematical way it is produced.

Keep in mind that on the Kasina full soundtracks and music are included with most sessions. So it is much more sophisticated.

However, the addition of light flicker is a huge boost in stimulation and many say, enjoyment. The brain is primarily focused on processing visual inputs with a smaller emphasis on sound processing. Like an 80/20 ratio.

To recap, expandability, exclusive technology, active development, passionate support and friendly folks recommends MindPlace products from this biased point of view.

Note you can get pretty close to the basic session types as presented on the David with our inexpensive Proteus system as well. It is not quite as modern as the Kasina with its interface but is still a very capable mind machine.

Hope this helps and I will be happy to answer any further questions,
Scott

Hello Xelirc,

I haven't used the David Alert machine but one of its predecessors, the David Paradise in combination with the Oasis. It combined L/S plus CES, just as the one you mentioned. Personally, I was never too fond of CES and didn't find it as effective as sounds, let alone lights. When I used CES solo, it didn't really do much for me. But that may be different for others. As an L/S device, the David Paradise was really good, in the nineties it was considered a topbrand in the business. Particularly the glasses were excellent. The programs were mostly pretty effective although in the long run also a little boring, and the controls weren't very intuitive. Many people considered these devices very good, but overpriced. I always loved the David Paradise but didn't care about the CES option.

I only have been using the Kasina for about six weeks, but in that period I have been using it extensively and I'm very impressed with it. The preset sessions are excellent, really high quality. Instead of just isochronic tones or binaural beats, they offer a tapestry of sounds or ambient music in which the audio signals are interwoven. In the previous mindmachines I owned I could only add music by connecting the machine to a CD or MP3-player, but it was just background that would or would not be a nice addition to the session. Here it's all symphony and much more immersive. The glasses offer, besides the entrainment signals, more colours and more intricate patterns.

By the way I don't work for Mindplace, I'm just enthousiastic about the Kasina. It's usually best to try them on first before making a decision. I'm not sure how many actual mindshops still exist, in the 1990's we had 2 in Amsterdam alone (one was mine). The Dutch Mindplace dealer where I bought my Kasina was giving free demonstrations, so I think in America there should be plenty of opportunities. Good luck finding the right mindmachine!

Thank you @Ard & @Scott for your responses and I do have another question for you Scott.

My understanding of the way those mind machines work is as follows:

They generate binaural beats and basically the brain that is receiving those and process them, slowly starts to change his own waves according to the frequencies that are perceived by it. Now, if Kasina can create those beats & lights by following the pattern of a particular song, it seems to me that that this phenomena will decrease the effectiveness of the overall session, because the frequencies of the beats will fluctuate according to the ones of that song.

Now, the questions sounds like this: How does the Kasina manages to allow one to listen to its own song while the binaural beats keep the same efficiency/capability/potency during the time when that song is playing?

Binaural beats are only one type of audio stimulation. In fact, they are the least effective form as far as entrainment goes.

The order of effectiveness with audio as regards measured power of EEG response from least to greatest is: binaural beats, monaural beats, cross modulated audio (like harmonic box x or other forms of multi channel stimulation), isochronic beats, broadband modulated noise, and clicks (very short punctuated noise bursts). One must also consider entrainment structures embedded in audio like tremolo, vibrato, etc. There are ways to make this more or less obtrusive.

Music itself has an effect on consciousness and mood. Ideally, the mood of the music matches the goal of the session. It is easy to see that if they do not match, or conflict, then effectiveness is reduced. Overall, sessions with proper music are much more persuasive and palatable.

The Kasina factory content takes advantage of all of the above mentioned techniques in various permutations. The sessions are expertly crafted.

However, keep in mind that with a mind machine, light is the predominant stimulation source and it is much more powerful than audio. So, really, you could have most any track of suitable music and overlay pulsed light on top of it and benefit from that.

We also feel that theories on entrainment can be far too rigid and vastly simplified as far as the brain's response. Brainwaves are in constant flux and motion. In the most ideal case, you simply statistically increase the power of the targeted frequency compared to a normal baseline.

Most important is to create an ideal inner environment for relaxation, imagination enhancement, journeying, and moving beyond normal thought patterns into new and beneficial areas.

At its base a mind machine experience is simply assisted and guided meditation. In all honestly, for most, the best results come over time and with repeated use. This is true although many can more easily adapt to the necessary inner conditions using a mind machine than 'sit and wait' meditation alone.

Hope this helps,
Scott

Yes it does. Thank you Scott for your help

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ard

Hello Xelirc,

I haven't used the David Alert machine but one of its predecessors, the David Paradise in combination with the Oasis. It combined L/S plus CES, just as the one you mentioned. Personally, I was never too fond of CES and didn't find it as effective as sounds, let alone lights. When I used CES solo, it didn't really do much for me. But that may be different for others. As an L/S device, the David Paradise was really good, in the nineties it was considered a topbrand in the business. Particularly the glasses were excellent. The programs were mostly pretty effective although in the long run also a little boring, and the controls weren't very intuitive. Many people considered these devices very good, but overpriced. I always loved the David Paradise but didn't care about the CES option.

I only have been using the Kasina for about six weeks, but in that period I have been using it extensively and I'm very impressed with it. The preset sessions are excellent, really high quality. Instead of just isochronic tones or binaural beats, they offer a tapestry of sounds or ambient music in which the audio signals are interwoven. In the previous mindmachines I owned I could only add music by connecting the machine to a CD or MP3-player, but it was just background that would or would not be a nice addition to the session. Here it's all symphony and much more immersive. The glasses offer, besides the entrainment signals, more colours and more intricate patterns.

By the way I don't work for Mindplace, I'm just enthousiastic about the Kasina. It's usually best to try them on first before making a decision. I'm not sure how many actual mindshops still exist, in the 1990's we had 2 in Amsterdam alone (one was mine). The Dutch Mindplace dealer where I bought my Kasina was giving free demonstrations, so I think in America there should be plenty of opportunities. Good luck finding the right mindmachine!

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Hello Ard, I had a david paradise xl + and found that with ces that the effects were much more profound than using light and sound without ces. When I really needed some cash then I sold that machine and was intent on getting another but they stopped that model. I managed to get hold of another david paradise and I love it too.



I think the programs are more for practical applications and not so much entertainment, Even so, It would be nice if they had something equivalent of the technologies like spectrastrobe and audiostrobe.



The great thing about the Kasina is that it can be used for entertainment purposes as well as practical purposes, ie meditation, pain control etc.


I believe that Robert and his team have produced the best light and sound machine out there, though to be honest I haven't used everything, out of all the mind machines I have then I would say it is the best. I have been a buyer of Robert's products since the early 90's.


I have had good correspondence with Robert, Andy quickly solved something for me with my unit and Scott is very kind and shared knowledge that has helped me with setting up my unit with a ces device and other help.

I doubt anyone could find a better company in terms of support and friendliness and I would say they are the best when it comes to these type of units.

"As regards CES, honestly, you would be better off to add a Foc.us tDCS device"

Hi Scott, does that tDCS device work in sync with the kasina sessions?


Thanks

Thank you for your kind words, Mind Voyager! It's a little hard to believe sometimes that we've been making AVS systems since 1988... 28 years!

The tDCS devices produce a direct current, unlike CES with its pulsed current. So there is no need to synchronize the signals. Scott has and uses a Foc.us, though I have not yet acquired one (I'd love to see a photo of his mind-tech collection one day), so he may weigh in when he next surfaces.

Best,

Robert

Hi Chris,
As Robert says, in tDCS mode a direct current (constant signal) is produced. CES is modulated at 100hz usually or in some protocols 0.1hz or others. A device like the BT Pro (which I have now btw) adds a further layer of modulation (basically turning the CES signal on and off) that can be synched with another source like a mind machine. I have found by viewing the result on an oscilloscope that the incoming signal levels are quite sensitive and without proper levels much distortion of the waveforms can occur. I planned a video of this at some point when I can find the time.

The reason that the BT Pro does not sync with the Kasina by direct connection is that the each wire on the Kasina carries 2 signals of opposite polarities to address both sides of the glasses. This confuses the BT Pro voltage follower circuit. In theory, placing a diode in between can block one of the signals and then possibly the BT Pro would sync. I haven't gotten around to trying this yet.

The Foc.us device also has other modes besides tDCS, tACS (transcranial alternating current) being the most notable. In this mode you pulse the current at a set value in hz. Thus, if you have a simple mind machine session at a known frequency then you can sync it depending on how closely the two sessions are triggered together. At the very least you would be providing stimulus in the same brainwave band but with the tACS device directly effecting chosen brain regions (with electrode placement), while the AVS device acts at a broader context and provides something to focus on during the session.


Hope this helps,
Scott

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Robert Austin

Thank you for your kind words, Mind Voyager! It's a little hard to believe sometimes that we've been making AVS systems since 1988... 28 years!

The tDCS devices produce a direct current, unlike CES with its pulsed current. So there is no need to synchronize the signals. Scott has and uses a Foc.us, though I have not yet acquired one (I'd love to see a photo of his mind-tech collection one day), so he may weigh in when he next surfaces.

Best,

Robert

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Thanks for all your help Robert. I am interested in the tdcs device also, have put it on want list for the future.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by neuroasis

Hi Chris,
As Robert says, in tDCS mode a direct current (constant signal) is produced. CES is modulated at 100hz usually or in some protocols 0.1hz or others. A device like the BT Pro (which I have now btw) adds a further layer of modulation (basically turning the CES signal on and off) that can be synched with another source like a mind machine. I have found by viewing the result on an oscilloscope that the incoming signal levels are quite sensitive and without proper levels much distortion of the waveforms can occur. I planned a video of this at some point when I can find the time.

The reason that the BT Pro does not sync with the Kasina by direct connection is that the each wire on the Kasina carries 2 signals of opposite polarities to address both sides of the glasses. This confuses the BT Pro voltage follower circuit. In theory, placing a diode in between can block one of the signals and then possibly the BT Pro would sync. I haven't gotten around to trying this yet.

The Foc.us device also has other modes besides tDCS, tACS (transcranial alternating current) being the most notable. In this mode you pulse the current at a set value in hz. Thus, if you have a simple mind machine session at a known frequency then you can sync it depending on how closely the two sessions are triggered together. At the very least you would be providing stimulus in the same brainwave band but with the tACS device directly effecting chosen brain regions (with electrode placement), while the AVS device acts at a broader context and provides something to focus on during the session.


Hope this helps,
Scott

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Thanks Scott, I am glad that you got a bt pro, They have a v2 out now and I do not think it has the av sync function anymore. You must have been lucky to get yours before they discontinued that function but the v2 looks good as it has more add ons and has an add on for more frequencies.

Be interested to know what you think about the av sync function and if you feel your sessions are more profound with it. As for The Foc.us device then please let me know if that is enhancing your light and sound sessions. Are there any particular experiences or benefits that you notice from using it?


I haven't got round to listening to those sessions you sent me yet, will let you know when I used them.


Thanks

Chris

Hi Scott

My mistake,i went on their website, it looks like they do have v1 as well as v2, v2 just has some more frequencies and some eye stimulation function but as you can get the extra frequencies by syncing with the kasina then v1 is all that is needed. did you see the magnastim function? did you get that with your bt pro? I might add that later but that doesn't sync with the kasina so not that bothered about it