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hi, there are scientists of reputation who claim that this disease is an invention of the pharmaceutical industry that generates millions of dollars of business, not been able to find any real proof of their existence, I would like to give me your opinion on the matter, and as opinion has no medical liability.
a greeting.
While I will agree that ADHD drugs are over prescribed, you cannot dispute the existence of the condition itself. While there is no definitive blood test that will confirm it, there are certain characteristics that are consistent with ADHD such as behavioral differences and an abundance of slow brainwave patterns. I don't like calling it a "disorder" or "disease", these folks are just wired differently. ADHD folks tend to be more creative, and will excel in areas that they find interesting. A look back in history will show the condition has always been there, but not recognized.
It's a shame that in this age when Junior has some behavior problems, or is not doing as well as their parents want him to do in school, they automatically blame it on ADHD and find a doctor to give them a prescription for Ritalin.
I understand you, though it?s a natural state of man, produces great difficulties who is so, but also has good things, but not whether they are worth the suffering caused by the social maladjustment of children "are so" the question is, if a natural state, can it be cured?.
I think, and this is my opinion, that it is a natural anomaly that just occurs. Because I do not think of it as a disease, there is no "cure". It would be like someone who is short trying to find a cure for shortness, so they can fit in better with the larger population that is taller.Quote:
Originally Posted by filemon
ADHD folks just operate differently. There are drugs that will help in some aspects, but the biggest relief is the realization that they are different, and things should modified to allow personal growth for those who don't fit in the round hole. If someone is short, they may need a smaller desk, and a step to write on the chalkboard. Considerations should also be made for ADHD kids, because they are not like the other kids in class much the same way.
What happens in the brain with ADD and ADHD, is that the theta waves tend to dominate and the SMR (lower beta) are suppressed. This has been proven. AVS machines are really good tools to use in helping readjust this balance. I use just the sound part of the AVS machine (Procyon at the moment) while I sit at my desk. I do two sessions of P.6 (sound only) and I'm good to go for a few days. I've found that my concentration ability does increase if I use the machine regularly. What also increases is my depth of thinking (I'm able to comprehend and think at a deeper level than usual). Brain wave stimulation (via AVS or or AS) have been used by multiple therapists (Anna Wise wrote a book on it) in treating ADD/ADHD with good results.
In addition to AV/S, diet is important as there are many things that we can eat that will affect our ability to concentrate and with kids especially. If someone has problems with behavior or concentrating, I'd look at diet first and make those changes and then add AVS, and then if that wasn't enough, I would look to pharmaceuticals.
I use both the AVS machine and the drugs. I have a bit of a different condition than just straight ADD and so I benefit from the combination of drugs and AVS. I don't need as high of a dosage probably because of the AVS.
M.
I believe ADD and ADHD exist and I do believe that some people are wired differently like brewmasher said. I believe though that at the end of the day we're all in control of our destiny and like some people need glasses to drive at night, people with a unique attention span need a tool as well to overcome the socially magnified disorder. Maybe AVS is the answer for children. Does anyone from MindPlace have any information on the subject of children and AVS therapy ? I also think meditation in several different forms should be introduced to children at a young age. Adults on the other hand have options other than drugs and any adult with ADHD should consider one of them.
really your contributions are helping me, there seems ADHD is real , and therefore we can do something about it, if I am physically weak, being a natural state, I can be stronger (which is also a natural state) if workout in a gym.
Unfortunately, it is not practical require to the community to adapt those who are different, does not work, we are who have to adapt to society, at least in appearance, for not to be subject to the mismatch. that hasmany problems , whether fair or unfair, so the world works.
I hope you understand me a greeting.
It definitely exists as a brain condition. The problem that has occurred is that there were unqualified people making the diagnosis and so you had general physicians drugging kids that didn't actually have ADD. A teacher is qualified to teach not diagnose brain or mental conditions. There are other forms of learning disorders and behavioral disorders that are not ADD and require different treatment. In there lies one of the problems. Also, a lot of behavioral problems are caused by food. Some kids are more sensitive to things like food coloring or sugar than other kids. You give a kid a pop, juice or energy drink for lunch on top of cookies or other sweets or simple carbs (that break down to sugar quickly) like chips and you have a behavioral problem after lunch. You give anyone that much sugar and expect them to sit still and learn ... not going to happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveMod
There is a higher risk in children to seizures and so they should be screened by a doctor before something like AVS is tried. If the doctor gave the okay on the kid using AVS, the lights should be turned down and the child should be monitored.Quote:
I believe though that at the end of the day we're all in control of our destiny and like some people need glasses to drive at night, people with a unique attention span need a tool as well to overcome the socially magnified disorder. Maybe AVS is the answer for children. Does anyone from MindPlace have any information on the subject of children and AVS therapy ? I also think meditation in several different forms should be introduced to children at a young age. Adults on the other hand have options other than drugs and any adult with ADHD should consider one of them.
Children's EEGs are naturally slower than adults, which means that they will not have the same capabilities for attention. The only way to know if the child's EEG is unnatural and there is a problem is to have them tested. You don't want to mess around with a developing brain.
There have been good results with AVS treating ADD in teenagers. The brain is still developing but they have grown past the point where the EEG is normal at Theta. Theta is a hallmark sign of ADD in adults. So, at some point in development the brain switches from Theta to SMR during waking hours. In people with ADD, that switch doesn't occur and AVS can help with that.
The following are some of my notes which are taken from the book, "Quantitative EEG and Neurofeedback" by James R. Evans and Andrew Abarbanel.
Pg. 105 - ADD is selective - not global. "These children are not necessarily distractible; they are mainly destractible when doing tasks they don't see the point of doing.
The child with ADD lives in the moment and is unable to perceive rewards (future rewards for work done now). The child does not process consequences of his behavior.
ADD is not curable - it's manageable. It doesn't go away when the child becomes an adult. It's a life long neurological disorder.
Pg. 106 - ADD is reflected in how the person processes information. The point of view in working with this disorder using neurofeedback is that if we can change the underlying neurology, perhaps we can affect a more long term change in the disorder.
[MB: Behavior therapy is also necessary. The person needs to learn how to manage his or her own neural process].
Re: Medication (still page 106) - The theory of medication is to alter the distribution of neurotransmitters, especially dopamine and norepinephrine in the brain. The thing is - medication does not cure the problem. As soon as the person stops taking the meds, the problem returns.
Pg. 108 - There are different types or subtypes of ADD - each requires different treatment.
So ... AVS can help but before one jumps to putting it on their kid because the kid is hyper or easily distracted, it would be wise to rule out diet and other environmental causes of the behavior first. If the kid is sensitive to sugar and is reacting to that and you put an AVS machine on that kid - you wouldn't get good results.
When it comes to the brain and behavior, it's rarely a simple solution that can be fixed by changing one thing. Often it requires a number of changes.
M.
steve impressive witness, unfortunately very common, we know that human beings have capabilities far beyond what we believe, the problem is put into place, the first thing we need to know what the problem is and then how to solve it, in my opinion is in forums like this where you can get it if people "who know" are provided to help, as well here as, the "official circles" have economic interests (pharmaceutical, medical, etc) and I fear that we have cheated.
I wish I could explain me in a couple paragraphs but there's no way, I'm sure we could all say the same thing.
I was diagnosed with ADD when I was in my early teens. ADD was just starting to become known, before that it was just called mild hyperactivity, ADHD was called hyperactivity and treated with Ritalin period and still is unfortunately. No one did anything about my ADD though, everyone just used it as an easy answer for my poor performance. My father was told by the school psychologist that someone has to be the janitor (no offense to janitors), when I heard that I just started rebelling and my dad lost all faith in my future and we were distant for the rest of his life. In grade school when they did the IQ tests I would fill in the circles randomly and of course be done 2 1/2 hours before everyone else, the teachers knew it to. After 3 years of that they brought my parents in and told them that I was mildly retarded based on my IQ scores. I thought it was funny then and I laugh about it now, my dad even protested loudly (I was there) and said that there had to be something wrong with the tests because he knew that I wasn't retarded. It was a different time then. My parents would have coffee with neighbors or friends occasionally at 10pm or 11pm and I'd be right there with them filling half my cup with sugar and cream and the other half with coffee, and do it several times......and no one cared or thought that might be a problem at 11 years old. My point is that activities like that went on all the time. My diet was made up of 3/4 sugar and 1/8 caffeine everyday. No one said, hey, maybe that's the problem, they just said hey, you're bad, and I believed them, and that's how my whole young life went. I'm 50 years old now and the success level of my life is definitely a product of those times. As an adult though, I identified those problems and corrected them. I just wish I would have known then what I know now. I've been an over achiever for about 20 years now. I'm a self taught electronics engineer, I built a lab in my home, most days I design and build circuits for hours and hours, I have a micro controller/processor portion of the lab where I write programs and experiment with robotics. A few years before my dad died I demonstrated for him a robot that I built, it took me 2 years to build it, he was impressed, I was glad I was able to show him.
I've been a vegan for 15 years but I identified the relationship of diet and success 25 years ago and I certified as a fitness trainer and nutritionist and I was an Amateur bodybuilder for 10 years. I would say that diet is one reason for ADD/ADHD and probably one of the main reasons. I don't try to help people anymore, I'm a dedicated misanthrope to some extent but there's a lot of kids out there that need real guidance concerning their future success and it's relationship with ADD/ADHD. I hope someone helps them.
Thanks for posting this Steve!
I find this life story a very important piece of information for so many reasons and I'd like to share a few of them with you.
Isn't that something. How a school psychologist's ill-thought out words altered the life course two people. His thoughtless words destroyed a relationship and could have destroyed a brilliant life. We can't even blame the past and lack of knowledge because it still happens today. What's important to point out is that out of the three people, Steve's response was the best. The psychologist decided he was a fortune teller and gave a crappy reading. The father believed the words of an "authority" figure because he was conditioned to believe that whatever a doctor says must be true.Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveMod
An extraordinary mind is often misunderstood by the ordinary.Quote:
In grade school when they did the IQ tests I would fill in the circles randomly and of course be done 2 1/2 hours before everyone else, the teachers knew it to. After 3 years of that they brought my parents in and told them that I was mildly retarded based on my IQ scores. I thought it was funny then and I laugh about it now, my dad even protested loudly (I was there) and said that there had to be something wrong with the tests because he knew that I wasn't retarded. It was a different time then.
In the book, "The Brain That Changes Itself", the author Norman Doidge tells a woman named Barbara Arrowsmith Young. Barbara had a brilliant mind but she given the label of "retarded" because she had some serious learning disabilities. Like Steve, despite her learning disabilities - her will was strong - and she went on to graduate from University and became the founder of a school that used a revolutionary method for retraining the brain through various exercises. It's an inspirational story and well worth reading. It reminds us that it is the will that determines success or failure in life not just the brain.
Diet, chemical and food sensitivities play such a huge role in our ability to function well mentally and emotionally. Sometimes a big difference can be made by just changing one little thing. In the book, A Mind to Crime, the author talks about this one case where this child was labelled as a behavioral problem. As it turns out, the child was allergic to milk and once this was discovered - the behavioral problem was resolved. I've read about cases where one sip of alcohol has caused a violent psychotic episode because the person was highly allergic to alcohol.Quote:
My parents would have coffee with neighbors or friends occasionally at 10pm or 11pm and I'd be right there with them filling half my cup with sugar and cream and the other half with coffee, and do it several times......and no one cared or thought that might be a problem at 11 years old. My point is that activities like that went on all the time. My diet was made up of 3/4 sugar and 1/8 caffeine everyday. No one said, hey, maybe that's the problem, they just said hey, you're bad, and I believed them, and that's how my whole young life went.
A strong will uncovers a brilliant mind. I'm so glad that your dad got a chance to see what you knew all along. It's unfortunate that you had to go through such difficult times and I'm hoping that your story reaches someone who can benefit from your experience and follow your example, minus the years of struggle.Quote:
I'm 50 years old now and the success level of my life is definitely a product of those times. As an adult though, I identified those problems and corrected them. I just wish I would have known then what I know now. I've been an over achiever for about 20 years now. I'm a self taught electronics engineer, I built a lab in my home, most days I design and build circuits for hours and hours, I have a micro controller/processor portion of the lab where I write programs and experiment with robotics. A few years before my dad died I demonstrated for him a robot that I built, it took me 2 years to build it, he was impressed, I was glad I was able to show him.
It's not easy telling ones story on a place like a forum - however, unlike other forms of social media - this forum is moderated and we are able to make it a safe place for people to share their stories of trials and success. Doing things like this is such an important and significant contribution to the betterment of society because it opens the forum for conversation, questions and learning.Quote:
I've been a vegan for 15 years but I identified the relationship of diet and success 25 years ago and I certified as a fitness trainer and nutritionist and I was an Amateur bodybuilder for 10 years. I would say that diet is one reason for ADD/ADHD and probably one of the main reasons. I don't try to help people anymore, I'm a dedicated misanthrope to some extent but there's a lot of kids out there that need real guidance concerning their future success and it's relationship with ADD/ADHD. I hope someone helps them.
M.
it gets interesting, my case is similar, I do not know if I have ADHD, but my symptoms seems a lot of it, but also with other "disease" called "supergifted" when I did the IQ test when I was a kid I said I cheated, the result is the same in the two "syndromes" is social maladjustment, which leads to "chronic emotional illness" because a child can not bear the marginalization of their peers, the result is disastrous, a void that can not be filled with anything (drugs), the only good thing is that these people rarely fall into mediocrity, perhaps due to its constant search for answers.
a greeting.
i am new to brain machines ? just got proteus. Learning is one of the areas I plan to improve/test with this machine and others.
And I have had some experience with addressing ADD as an ayurveda practitioner over the last 25 years. What I have found is that there are many different things being labeled ADD/ADHD. And so various therapies to help. Here are a few causes of ADD I have found in my clients.
1. heavy metals in the brain (in one case it was dumped near their home). the girl really bounced off the walls. I gave her ayurvedic herbs that take heavy metals out of the brain, natural ayurveda food plan. Gradually she improved until she was able to return to regular school! Wow if you saw her a few years earlier. They moved to the country for fresh air living.
2. So-called "troubled teens" in high school who had social and grade issues. They started giving them yoga classes and ... they all improved socially & learning. Here the teachers are on anti-depressants because the unnatural teaching regime imposed on them. So they call it learning disability instead of teaching disability
3. Research from vedic astrology suggests certain planets related to learning and emotions, when placed in certain relationships cause learning issues. Mantras, herbs, gems, yantras offer remedies.
4. Horses help a lot of kids too (see the movie on hulu.com Horse Boy. Here the boy also worked with shamans who seemed to fully heal the boy (despite that he had heavy metals in his body).
5. Using Neurosky reg machine, there is a software tested for improving learning Hocus Focus I think it is called - its on their website, and the headset works with thought stream to test how well the software is working improving learning /all biofeedback testing.
6. I've seen some kids respond very well to diet (avoiding white sugar, hormones, chemicals, non-organic etc.)
7. Other kids have a real genius and the education system doesn't know yet how to teach these kids.
8. kids have psychic/intuitive/mystic gifts that are not nourished and/or squashed
9. family patterns of quick minds (family brain entrainment) - where studies have found, contrary to the genetic view, even adopted kids wound up with the same diseases the blood family had.
10. combinations of the above.
so a lot of causes, and a lot of therapy options in my experience
Greetings,
This is my first day of posting after spending a few reading here and there on the forum.
My wife and i home-schooled our now-grown kids and it was an adventure to say the least!
Our 26 year old daughter is a Tech Sgt in the USAF and was always a quick book-learner passing the ASVAB with a score of 96%. I think early on she had the ability to see the big picture and that _school_ was a necessary something so she passed the years pouring herself into reading and studying well after the final _bell_ of any school day.
Our 24 year old son is a Sr.Airman in the USAF and is a hands-on-learner rather than a reader. And while this learning style was addressed and focused on while we taught him at home, this caused some difficulties once attempting to get into the system as his ASVAB score was sub 60 which meant he was ineligible for entry. Fortunately he had an amazing recruiter that had seen this sort of kid come his way and believed in Matthew's potential as he had seen him in action during outings. So they made an exception and let him in. THEN, when in tech school they made more exceptions...They leaned the grading more toward hands on technique and physical testing of what he had been taught rather than raw test scores. Now i'm not saying that was right/wrong, but there is a very grateful SrAM serving his country as a well liked, competent, and now confident Civil Engineer.
So what is my point? & Pardon the above setting the stage :)...
Both kids had the identical healthy diet, as my wife and i are both totally into nutrition and mostly vegans, though we still had food in the dairy and wheat categories in the house during the teen years (2004-2008). BUT, what we did notice is that our son would get so focused on other things he would neglect his body and not drink fluids (primarily vita-mix veg drinks or teas or fresh lemon-aid available), and also sometimes miss meals. Even now when we come together on our annual camping adventures we monitor him and his food intake. He is getting better at realizing the relationship between attention-focus and nutritional intake, though loving prompts still go a long way to keeping up a cheerful outlook.
During ~2004-2005 i found Holosync's Mind Stim CD and we introduced that into the classroom environment. Funny thing is our rocket-scientist daughter thought it was annoying...but our son really got into it and would actually put it on at various times while trying to study. Different strokes and learning styles. I'm grateful we made the sacrifice to home school as i really don't know how the public school system would have provided for our son, nor where he would be now.
Cheers,
Thom
He would have been left to flounder and his life would have been a lot different.
This is a subject dear to my heart. I've coached ADD-ish clients for nearly 2 decades and have learned to work and play with
my own entertaining brain.
I do not believe that it is a disorder and certainly not a disease.
I really like Thom Hartmann's metaphor of hunters and farmers.
"Normal" people in our society would be farmers. Think about the mindset of a farmer.
They're on time, are comfortable with delayed gratification and routine. They do one
thing at a time. Slow and steady wins the race. They make and follow rules. They are
the Great Maintainers.
Hunters are in the moment, alive and engaged. They multitask, take risks, are endlessly creative,
and get bored easily. They rebel against authority and routine, and need stimulation. These folks are the
ones who have created change and innovation thru the ages. Think about all of the change makers
in history - I haven't been able to come up with a major shift that came at the hands of a farmer!
The only reason ADD is called a disorder is because it's hard to control hunters. They think their
own thoughts and have their own way of doing things. They disrupt boring classes for entertainment
and fight against the status quo when it doesn't work. Teachers have a very tough time with ADDers,
especially ones who process kinesthetically (need to move to get info into their brains) because it
is harder to manage them in the classroom - really difficult with large class sizes.
Innovators, leaders, entrepreneurs, sales people, entertainers, construction workers all benefit from
a hunter's mind.
ADDers are wired DIFFERENTLY than farmers and our industrial revolution required people who could
follow rules and do what they're told - even in mind deadeningly boring jobs. Today's marketplace
with all of the multitasking we need to do is actually becoming more ADD-friendly!
Gone are the days when someone could hook up with a corporation and work their way up the ladder,
retiring at the other end with a gold watch.
In today's world, we need to be fast on our feet and have a short tail.
So . . . I see ADD as a gift. And we are the ones who will do the most to change the world we live in.
It's just a question of learning how to use our creative minds effectively in a society that likes to
consider us broken!
Viva la differance!
I agree with Steve.
I think it's pretty awesome how the recruiter was willing to adapt things in a way that were helpful to Matthew. I would have thought that the military was the last place that could happen.
Just a comment regarding the holosynch cd. People with attention or concentration problems tend to have dominant theta waves and so that CD probably was geared on increasing Beta waves or making them more dominant. For someone who doesn't have attention or concentrating problems, the CD would be annoying because that person's Beta level is already high (high enough) and adding more can create anxiety.
M.
Hi There!
I respectfully disagree. ADD is a disorder and the people who have it do benefit from treatment. I think that the problem comes in where people diagnosed by parents, teachers and doctors who do not specialize in this area. Those are the kids who just need redirection and coaching.Quote:
I do not believe that it is a disorder and certainly not a disease.
When I first read this, I liked it too because of the positive outlook and while these characteristics may fit with some people who have ADD, they also fit with those who do not. We can't say that all hunters have ADD no more than we can say all farmers do not.Quote:
I really like Thom Hartmann's metaphor of hunters and farmers.
That may be true of some individuals but those with ADD really do have a problem with concentration and distraction can be a problem. It's very frustrating to want to do something simple like read a book and not be able because your mind keeps jumping around to other things. The hunter has to be patient and actually has to be able to sit still ... a hunter with ADD would probably scare the prey away with all his fidgeting - that or have a hair trigger.Quote:
The only reason ADD is called a disorder is because it's hard to control hunters. They think their
own thoughts and have their own way of doing things. They disrupt boring classes for entertainment
and fight against the status quo when it doesn't work. Teachers have a very tough time with ADDers,
especially ones who process kinesthetically (need to move to get info into their brains) because it
is harder to manage them in the classroom - really difficult with large class sizes.
You say "follow rules" and work routine jobs like it's a bad thing. Some people like simple, stress free jobs. It doesn't make them less interesting people or less valuable to society.Quote:
ADDers are wired DIFFERENTLY than farmers and our industrial revolution required people who could
follow rules and do what they're told - even in mind deadeningly boring jobs. Today's marketplace
with all of the multitasking we need to do is actually becoming more ADD-friendly!
I'm not sure what this has to do with ADD because you add stress to ADD and you get a meltdown. Not to mention, many untreated people with ADD self-medicate with caffeine and other stimulants.Quote:
Gone are the days when someone could hook up with a corporation and work their way up the ladder,
retiring at the other end with a gold watch.
In today's world, we need to be fast on our feet and have a short tail.
By thinking of it as a gift is to deny the problem and treatment to those who need it. What's interesting to me is that most of the people who are against the drugs that treat ADD are not those who live with ADD/ADHD. It's a bit of a touchy spot for me because I've walked a mile or two in those shoes and while diet and AVS were helpful and still are, I wouldn't be as functional as I am without the drugs.Quote:
So . . . I see ADD as a gift. And we are the ones who will do the most to change the world we live in.
It's not always that simple of a solution. I think we need both - the positive attitude and flexibility of teachers, coaches and employers as well as the acceptance of the reality that brain/behavior disorders exist and the people that have them do benefit from proper diagnosis and treatment.Quote:
It's just a question of learning how to use our creative minds effectively in a society that likes to
consider us broken!
It looks like we have the makings of a debate. :-) Thanks for your thoughts on the subject. I may disagree with some of your points but I also like the positive perspective you took and I think what you offer is of value and has its place.
M.
Just goes to show you that it takes all kind of individuals to make a world. It would be pretty boring, and I doubt that humans would have evolved as far as we have if we were all wired the same. Who is the judge that determines who is 'normal' and and who has a 'disorder'. Heck, there are some people that think that I am weird (quite a few actually) because I meditate and do AVS. It would be a sad day if our goal was to medicate our kids so they will all be the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by writer23
Ya but you are not weird because of ADD. :icon_tongue: Hee hee :pQuote:
Originally Posted by brewmasher
This brings to mind a few things. Where identifying a "disorder" becomes important is if something is interfering with the person's ability to function at their best. Treatment doesn't always mean drugs either. A disorder doesn't mean the person is broken.
Weird is an individual perception and so is normal. The "norms" in society are a general agreement of conduct or acceptable behavior by the majority of society. It's expected that there will be people on the fringe of those norms. If those fringe people engage in behaviors that are destructive to the society, then those behaviors are called dysfunctional. In the animal world, the individual that doesn't comply with the "pack law" is kicked out of the pack/herd/flock or is killed. Survival of the pack depends on the unity of the group. Survival of society requires the same.
I'm not saying that having individuality or doing things differently are a bad thing. I'd be a hypocrite. I look a bit like an aging goth (but it's really aging rock goddess), am totally into nerdy things like science and have a raven that lives in my kitchen - to most that's kind of weird and I'd agree and have a good laugh about it. At the same time, my "weirdness" doesn't interfere with the society around me. I pay taxes, give to charity, work and so forth. This kind of deviates from ADD/ADHD but I really wanted to address the point that recognizing disorders and treating them is for medical reasons not societal. When it becomes for societal reasons - that becomes a whole other story.
M.