Are NP3, AVS and Thought stream Biofeedback complementary?

Hi, could someone help me with these questions?
To treat my ADHD I recently bought the NP3 and the Procyon AVS, and am still learn how to use them for better results. After reading the details on Biofeedback and some article I am wondering if the Thought stream Biofeedback System with Mental Games Software was not better, or could not be complementary to help me achieving my goal.
I've been using with satisfaction sessions ?Cognition-Attention? of NP3 with AVS, especially Attention & Hyperactivity Help and Theta for Affirmations or Hypnosis (Alternating). I?m a bit confused about these many sessions and don't know yet how to create one.
1. Could you please tell me which one of these three (NP3, Procyon AVS and Biofeedback) could the best help me, or how I can use them more effectively? I know it is good for me because I don't take Ritalin anymore thanks to SMR and the sessions mentioned above.
I'm about 40 and have been suffering for this handicap since my childhood. 8 months ago I have been diagnosed ADHD combined types. In his book "Treatment of psychoneurosis through reeducation of brain control" doctor Roger Vittoz describes very good the problem I have, and I also believe that mastering his exercises on "Receptivity" could definitively cure me. But they are really not easy for me, although they seem to be simple. An English translation of this book by Christian H. Godefroy is "How to Control Your Brain At Will" can be found on his website club-positif.com for free
2. Do you know if/how NP3, AVS or Thought stream Biofeedback could help develop/improve receptivity, at least the 3 most essential (hearing, sight and touch)? If yes with program/ devices/ sessions could be more appropriate?
I have lot problems of memory especially short memory, consciousness, self-awareness, orientation, balance, self-control and so. This has a very negative effect on communication, presentation and all part of my life. I don't have sleep problem like many other. I can rather say that I have abundant sleep, and sometime too much, and when awake I don't feel rest but tire with heavy empty head.
3. Which sessions do you think could help me the most?
Thank you so much in advance for your support.

Hello Sam and welcome to the forum,

I want to refer you to the discussion with filemon at this thread http://www.mindplacesupport.com/foru...=8329#post8329 . He had been gathering EEG data with a Neurosky MindSet. This data is showing a great deal of waking Theta in the readings. This is characteristic of some of the mapped brainwaves of users who have been diagnosed with ADHD by medical professionals.

Notice that the NP3 session Attention & Hyperactivity you have been using is strongly weighted toward introducing high Beta patterns specifically 18Hz for the left hemisphere while at the same time stimulating the right hemisphere with SMR frequencies weighted toward 13Hz Alpha. This is a recommended protocol if in the past you have responded to treatment with stimulants such as Ritalin. It is necessary to utilize this program for an extended period to assess benefits.

You might want to read this research article for more information http://www.avstim.com/manuals/olmstead_dissertation.pdf .

I wonder why it is that you have also chosen to include a Theta based program? This might be contraindicated. Is it simply an interest in the state of consciousness or has your reading lead you to include it? Or is it that you are including affirmations in your practice?

It has been a few years since I have browsed the Control Your Brain At Will book but I remember that it was interesting. I have relocated it and will review it.

To be honest, I think that you might benefit most by introducing some EEG monitoring into your practice. The Neurosky MindSet is an affordable device. It can assist with ascertaining levels of Attention vs. Meditation which are composite states of higher and lower frontal lobe activation. With it, you can begin to get a clearer idea of your characteristic brainwave patterns and discover what areas might most benefit from AVS stimulation. Note we do not sell nor support this device although many on this forum have one of these products including me.

The ThoughtStream can also be used to understand how it is that your training is affecting your stress levels and can also act as a valuable ally to gain a sense of personal attunement. All of these devices can be used together in a full spectrum Neurofeedback/Biofeedback program.

Hope this helps, if not ask further questions...

Scott

Disclaimer: All statements are personal opinion only. I am not a trained medical doctor and make no definitive claims of efficacy of treatment or proven fitness for a particular outcome.

Hi Neuroasis!
Thank you so much for your prompt reaction to my message and the explanations you gave me. I looked the website of Neurosky and I am planning to buy the MindWave. On the note of that product description I read that there is MindWave intended for usage in 60 Hz regions, such as the US and one other to be using in a 50 Hz region, such as Europe. Is that applicable to all brainwave machines? I ask that because I live in the Netherlands and I bought my Procyon from MindPlace US.
I find you discussion with Filemon very interesting. Do you mean that the MindWave is easier to use and an easier solution for a beginner, but a part of that you should better recommend the Mindset?
I use the Theta for Affirmations or Hypnosis - Alternating only for hypnosis, just because the wizard of NP3 recommended me that. I attach here a copy of the book of Vittoz
Thank you again for your support.

Hi Sam,
A potential problem that people run into when undertaking a program using light and sound stimulation is that if there are underlying medical or neurological conditions they may choose programs that could reinforce the unwanted brainwave patterns. For instance, Theta based sessions often by their description seem to be the most interesting... these brainwave patterns have been associated with hypnosis, hypnagogia, dreaming, trance.. etc.

However, for certain conditions such as ADHD an overabundance of waking Theta waves could already be produced. So you see that using programs that are designed to increase Theta wave production is potentially amplifying the underlying condition.

That is why it is wise to consult a medical professional if you wish to experiment with brainwave stimulation for treatment.

Still, the NP3 session you have chosen to try for ADHD is a good starting point and with repeated use you will be able to determine if it is working for you. After using daily for a month you will probably have a good measure of the effect.

For a new purchase to use with the Procyon, the MindWave is a better choice. With it you will be able to use the audio from the Procyon or from NP3 much easier because it doesn't have headphones built in.

You will have no problem with the Procyon in your country as it is powered by batteries or USB.

Hope this helps. Please update us with your progress and ask more questions if needed.

Scott

SR neuroasis well advised to you, as always, I tell him I am researching on my own and so we can benefit mutually from our experiences and share them here to serve others.
The MWS has a program for ADHD, one basic and one advanced by Mrs. Olmstead, according to my studies, you need one month at a rate of half an hour daily training to stabilize brain synapses, to catch a new habit or change an established one.
I use the TS for bioptimizar the MWS program for ADHD and use Proteus to listen and watch the show, but my intention is to use the NeuroSky to use the utility "EGG-driven" is better than bioptimizacion to improve "drag "as it adapts to your brain mapping, which is where we have the problem, not the GSR, and I'm not sure to get more relaxation is a sign that we are moving in the right way, that I have to investigate more.
I hope this serve to you, a greating.

Please do share your experiences. You have a lot of devices and a good bit of data that will benefit others. I'm glad you figured out the BioOptimization features of NP3 and MWS as I will eventually make videos describing these... but my to do list is long....

As you say, EEG is an invaluable component to any serious self study program...

I think relaxation is a very important component to creating a baseline for meditation and self mastery... so the ThoughtStream is important as a guide to this state. Having said that, stress is a necessary process for 'pushing our limits' and GSR can reflect that as well.... and stress will likely increase in the short term while learning new things.

I promise you I will share my experiences and research here, the problem is that ADHD is a big problem and I have to solve it before anything else, I'm at it, a problem I have is that the MWS does not support the NeuroSky to EGG-driven, and neither does the Bioexplorer and bioera, do you know which program would serve me?.
The Emotiv serves, but I like more the NeuroSky for its simplicity, if I can not use the NeuroSky, i?ll buy the Emotiv , although I would like to wait for the dry electrodes.
a greeting.

MWS and NP3 do support Neurosky natively... I can connect them without problems... don't even need to have special driver. Emotiv (which I have) is harder because of some many values that cannot be read as an average of values.. BioExplorer requires Research SDK... I have consumer headset...

ok, but can I do EGG-driven with neurosky in the MWS?, I only can see bioptimization in the MWS, and they says that I need bioexplorer for do the EGG-driven but bioexplorer don?t support neurosky I believe, I?m not sure.

Hi guys,

As I said it earlier, I started last month with these devices, and think I must be a bit cautious. That is why I’m advancing step by step, even that I have very good results till know. I haven’t acquired the mindware yet, and think it will help me making important steps when I get it. I have not used the bio optimization yet.

Thanks Neuroasis, I’ve change the theta based program to an alpha based program named in NP3 Alpha for Visualization Alternating, and the outcome is pretty good.
Thanks Filemon, I am using the NP3 and not the MWS, so don’t know if the ADHD sessions in both programs are the same. The NP3 just has basic one in Cognition-Attention.

Cheers,
Sam

Quote:

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Originally Posted by filemon

ok, but can I do EGG-driven with neurosky in the MWS?, I only can see bioptimization in the MWS, and they says that I need bioexplorer for do the EGG-driven but bioexplorer don?t support neurosky I believe, I?m not sure.

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I have heard that you can use Neurosky + Bioexplorer to do EEG driving. Kind of counter productive to spend $425 to get a 1 channel $99 unit to work, when you can just use the $299 Emotiv.

Neuroasis, do you think it's possible to construct a session that controls binaural/monaural beats with the Neurosky such as you did with the Thoughtstream? I don't have a Neurosky to try. I think that would be a good compromise. It won't be true EEG driving, but you will still be controlling the session based on your brainwaves.

Quote:

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Thanks Filemon, I am using the NP3 and not the MWS, so don’t know if the ADHD sessions in both programs are the same. The NP3 just has basic one in Cognition-Attention.

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The sessions are basically the same. Any beta session can be used for ADHD. If you have purchased NP3, you can download more sessions from the Member's Area. I particularity like Dr. Ruth Olmstead's 2 part protocol.

Indeed, SR brewmasher, the Emotiv is much better than neurosky and also would serve for other things like brain mapping, I certainly will buy it, the better of NeuroSky is its extreme easy of use, you put it in seconds and always gives excellent signal, because it rests directly on the skin, Emotiv is much more complex to get a clear signal, the problem is that it is a single electrode, although the study of attention is in the frontal lobe , and perhaps the NeuroSky not less good that the Emotiv for that, I'm not sure, I hope someone know more discuss it.
the neurosky can be used for bioptimization like the toughstream, but be carefull and buy the mindwave, not the mindset because this can?t be used at the same time with the proycon or proteus

Hi Filemon,
Have you done any experiment to prove that Neurosky is functioning or it is just placebo. If you did any experiment, can you share what you did and what were the outcomes.

Love to hear from you soon.
Thanks
Raj

The inexpensive EEGs such as the NeuroSky and Emotiv products are marketed as Brain to Computer Interface devices. This is a different product category that likely serves to avoid the necessary expenses and scrutiny of being listed as medical devices. Thus, they cannot really broadcast certain types of data from their raw streams. You must buy a developer's or research version to get these features. The Emotiv Research SDK costs $750 and it is the only version that works with BioExplorer. Neurosky does work with BioExplorer out of the box but as brewmasher says, it is only 1 channel so kind of pointless for the additional $400 or so that BioExplorer costs.

As far as EEG driving, I'm not sure exactly what it is that you would want to do but you can easily use the data from either of the BCI headsets to influence your sessions in MWS... even far beyond BioOptimization. The only challenge is the raw data that is output from these devices has its own scale of values that are not able to easily be recognized as brainwave frequencies in Hertz. So, what you are dealing with is a relative reading.

You are looking at a balance of the brainwave bands and how they are changing over time. This is sufficient information for Neurofeedback applications. You'll have to judge for yourself how it may compare to medical grade EEGs but from my usage thus far the relative scaling of the values seems reasonable and it is of great value to have this information to include in sessions. I will be releasing more works that include this data in the near future.

For now, I have created the following Mind Workstation session that may be of benefit to the users on this thread. Here is the description:

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This session encourages Beta production and discourages Theta production. It requires the Neurosky MindWave or MindSet. An AudioStrobe track is included for use with Mind Machines.

It uses the Neurosky EEG device to track the amplitude of Theta waves.

As Theta wave amplitude increases the following actions occur:

1. The value of the Entrainment track is scaled between 14Hz and 18Hz.

2. The Amplitude Entrainment Intensity is increased on the Pink Noise track. High Theta values produce more intense 'clicking' and crisper pulses.

3. A Binaural Beat track in a Harmonic Box X configuration follows the Entrainment track. The pitch of the carrier wave is an inverse of the Attention value from the Neurosky headset. The pitch is at its lowest when the Attention value is the highest. As Attention drifts the pitch of the track increases.

4. An AudioStrobe track is controlled by the Entrainment value. The Flashing Intensity of the track is controlled by the Meditation value from the Neurosky headset. As the Meditation value increases the flashing becomes more intense.

A thunderstorm track and wind chimes are included for ambience. A Graphing engine records your results for later study.

This session is designed to allow the user to encourage Beta wave production and maintain Attention levels with Neurofeedback.

Designed by Scott Hendrickson.
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No medical claims are made or implied. Use at your discretion.

I am using the "home-of-attention" to train attention, I have little time, so too early to know if it works, has a record of success, if over time this is increasing, then we know that works, also carried a record of graphics, the theta wave should decrease with time, and the graphics do not lie, another thing is its accuracy, but the relative level of they are accurate.
the only way to know if something works is with the own experimentation, but the results may be slow to arrive, especially if we have any chronic disease, the type of ADHD, we will not resolve in two days we have been dragging something years.
a greeting.

Hi guys, I’ve aquired a Neurosky Mindwave and am learning how to use it to have better results. Could you tell me how to use with NP3 or Procyon sessions and save/print file graph and chart? I’ll also like to know how to see session overview and how to compare sessions in order to see my progress
Neuroasis: I’d like to try “Increase Beta with Neurosky Feedback.mws” but I can’t open mws files. Could you please save it in mp3? Thanks, sam

Hi Sam,
I think you will enjoy using the MindWave. Using this device with NeuroProgrammer you will only have the BioOptimization features. Basically, it will use the readings from the Neurosky to optimize the session parameters based on your response over multiple uses. It is a fully automatic process. You can view a report of the readings and the adjustments that are made.
Advanced features like configurable graphing and programmed responses to readings require Mind Workstation. This includes all the tracking that I am doing in "Increase Beta with Neurosky Feedback" session. So the same tools are not present in NeuroProgrammer and thus the session cannot be converted and still have all the functions. The session will work with the trial version of Mind Workstation and allow you to evaluate how it fits your needs.

Please keep us updated on your thoughts and progress.

Scott

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sam

Hi guys, I’ve aquired a Neurosky Mindwave and am learning how to use it to have better results. Could you tell me how to use with NP3 or Procyon sessions and save/print file graph and chart? I’ll also like to know how to see session overview and how to compare sessions in order to see my progress
Neuroasis: I’d like to try “Increase Beta with Neurosky Feedback.mws” but I can’t open mws files. Could you please save it in mp3? Thanks, sam

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You will need Mind Workstation Professional to graph sessions and use the Neurosky to control track functions. NP3 is limited to biooptimization. You can view which frequencies have been tried, and which frequency is the optimal by going to Settings> Program Settings> Biooptimization> View Biooptimization data.

Thank you very much for your prompt reaction. I'll try it like that to see what it will bring me. Cheers, Sam

Just digging in and getting started with this fascinating stuff - I think there's a lot of potential here in combining bio and neurofeedback with AVS.

So far, I feel the most relevant applications could be the following:

- AVS sessions while having heart rate variability monitor or Thoughtstream connected - this could help not only in validating the physiological effects of a relaxation protocol. Both tools also provide auditive feedback which could be helpful to reinforce the relaxation process.

- I use the Neurosky Mindwave in combination with a free Windows software, NeuroExperimenter. It allows you not only to define specific bands and combinations or functions thereof for training (different from HoA which only provides limited preset protocols), but you can also monitor EEG activity during a baseline and experimental condition and then get an analysis of differences between the two (e.g. you create a 20' session with a 10' baseline, then read for 10' followed by an open-eye KASINA session to find out in the analysis which bands have increased/decreased. I prefer open-eye in these experiments because closing your eyes has a strong effect on Alpha, an artifact which would mess up any real comparison between the two stages.)

- With NP3 and MWS, you could also leverage the MindWave for BioOptimization to find the specific frequency within a select range which you best respond to.


Do you use these tools for additional objectives? Would be interested to learn more about how these can be integrated to improve overall experience and effectiveness.

One topic that I'm really interested in is EEG driving, but the price tag seems a bit high at this point - plus, my cute little Neurosky Mindwave is probably not the best tool for this specific application - from what I've read in the research literature, FP points are only used in very few protocols which limits the range of this entry-level gadget. Personally, I was interested in the Emotiv but shying away as there does not seem to be a reliable dealer in Europe, plus heard from some folks who couldn't make it work - so would definitely want to make sure customer support is easy to reach and reliable to respond. The good news is, all this stuff should become easier to use (think dry contact points vs. handling lube on your skull) and hopefully more available with lower prices as technology advances.

The Neurosky holds up pretty well for most people with the onboard algorithms and easy setup. I actually own every product they have released, even the Star Wars toys.. but not the Necomimi... haha.. I have very good protocols for it with Mind Workstation that I can share.

I wanted to do a lot with training on MWS (I have come up with dozens of things that no one else even knows is possible) but the Transparent company is not so supportive at this point, moving in a new direction. My own software and that of others will replace it in the future. Still, it is the best out there right now.

Other more advanced headsets require BioEra of BioExplorer to really utilize. There is also a new, nice piece of software making inroads called Neuromore. I am a beta tester of that. The Emotiv EPOC is still the best overall value but somewhat hard to manage until you learn some tricks. I am willing to share and have commented on the Transparent forum for instance on how to best use it.

Another option I use with BioExplorer is the EEG-SMT from Olimex. It is a nice 4 channel unit and not at all expensive, especially being that it has active electrodes available.

The OpenBCI company is getting ready to shake things up later this year with their new, cheap releases: http://openbci.com/ That is the company to watch.

Having biosensors is crucial if you really want to gather metrics and track progress.