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I am new to this forum and am wondering if anyone has had out of body experiences using light & sound machines? In a book I'm currently reading, the author mentioned that they can he helpful.
I would be interested to read about any experiences and/or techniques that others would like to discuss.
Thanks.
Hi C-shore;
Welcome to the community!
Scroll down the page to see a section called "Similar Threads". Have a look to see if there's already some discussion on the subject. If not, hopefully someone will answer you!
Enjoy! :)
-Andy.
Thanks Andy.
I did check out the 'similar threads' area but didn't see anything there that addressed what I'm looking for.
I would think that a certain percentage of people are using L&S machines to try to do OBE... i.e., bought their machine specifically for that reason. That's what I'm interested in. I've been meditating for many years and am ready for the next 'level' and am hoping these machines can help with that.
Anybody out there who feels comfortable discussing this?
Hi CShore,
There was some talk on the forum about Lucid Dreaming - you may find this subject also interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by C-shore
I would classify OBE as an Altered State of Consciousness since it is controversial whether a person actually does leave their body or if they just think they do. The brain is really good at hallucinating.
The Audiostrobe CD titled "Requiem" is really good for creating an ASC. I felt like I was floating in space. It was quite a cool feeling.
I had this friend who claimed that he could astral travel. We set up some experiments where he would travel to my place and tell me what I put on a table. Unfortunately we did not get any results. I think what he was doing was lucid dreaming and not astral traveling.
Back to light and sound. The best programs for lucid dreaming (and astral traveling) would be a theta based program. I'm not sure whether you are using a Proteus or Procyon so I won't recommend a program to try.
M.
Just ordered it a few days ago based on a similar recommendation. I'll let you know how it works for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marisa
My sister can do this (astral travel). She has - twice - traveled to a location where another traveler is, and then comparing notes later on, confirms that they were both there. She was astonished the first time it happened. I know this is 'third-hand' info and hard to believe. Even though I totally believe her, I won't REALLY believe it until I experience it myself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marisa
I've been working on my lucid dreaming. I can 'do it' occasionally, although it's hard to remember that it's really dream when I'm there. Cool when it works, though.
I have the Sirius and have just started using it. I know it's more of a basic unit, but if it works for me I may upgrade. Do you think it's suitable for beginners to light & sound? (however I've been meditating and reading about consciousness for over 15 years.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marisa
Please do. Everyone I know that has tried has commented on it being a "freaky" experience. lol Ya, that it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by C-shore
See if you can get your sister to travel to your place and tell you what number you have written on a piece of paper. If you and/or your sister can find a way to prove that she can astral travel ... James Randi will give her a million dollars. That would be a nice chunk of change to have for an astral trip.Quote:
My sister can do this (astral travel). She has - twice - traveled to a location where another traveler is, and then comparing notes later on, confirms that they were both there. She was astonished the first time it happened. I know this is 'third-hand' info and hard to believe. Even though I totally believe her, I won't REALLY believe it until I experience it myself.
Edgar Cayce(sp) became quite famous for his reputed astral ventures where he went to a person's home and looked at their body and diagnoised their illness. The EC society swears that he had this ability and it was documented by his wife - though that alone is not really enough scientifically to go on ... but it's an interesting study.
I can do it a bit as well. I am quite often "aware" in my dreams but I forget to change things, though sometimes if I don't like the outcome of a dream - while still in the dream state, I go back and change it and then play out the dream with an alternate ending. It's like making your own movies. lolQuote:
I've been working on my lucid dreaming. I can 'do it' occasionally, although it's hard to remember that it's really dream when I'm there. Cool when it works, though.
The Sirius will do exactly the same thing that the Proteus and Procyon does and that is to guide the brainwaves into a desired state. The Proteus and Procyon are better machines as they have more features -however, for now, the Sirius will serve you just fine. :)Quote:
I have the Sirius and have just started using it. I know it's more of a basic unit, but if it works for me I may upgrade. Do you think it's suitable for beginners to light & sound? (however I've been meditating and reading about consciousness for over 15 years.)
I haven't used it (the Sirius) much as my first unit was a Proteus (which I absolutely love). I have used the Procyon as well and really like the sounds on that machine.
M.
Had an absolutely amazing, and most funny lucid experience just two nights ago! More than likely due to general use of the Procyon as well as endless reading. And quite useful as you will see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marisa
Been drinking lots more water the last few weeks for general health, rather than too many cups of tea. But forgot I should not drink too much before going to bed, which brings me to the dream. :)
Was walking through a woodland area, looking for a place to pee! Saw a strange looking public loo entrance which I went into, and then walked down a long, beautiful curving (mansion like) stairway. As I was walking down the stairs I felt more 'strange' and felt myself apart from the dream. Saw a row of urinals and headed there to relieve my pressure, BUT, just as I was about to do so, I became even more aware of what I was doing and told myself to stop! I clearly remember standing back and talking to myself standing in front of me - instructing myself to wake up and go to the loo. Sure enough, I woke up and went to bathroom. Phew...
Next time I hope to remember to spend more time looking around and doing the lucid checks like seeing how many fingers I have. :eek: Will not drink too much before bedtime again though. :icon_redface:
So what do you use your machine for mostly? For me it's a meditation aid and to access higher - or different - states of consciousness. But I'm totally open to other types of ideas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marisa
Yeah, we're in the process of trying that... to prove it to ourselves, not anyone else. So far, no luck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marisa
However, I must say that it's my feeling that we (you, me - all of us) try and define what OBEs and spiritual experiences are on the basis of our life experiences. Of course that is perfectly rational - what else do we have to base them on? But if one is experiencing something that is not based on our reality, is it fair to expect them to 'prove' it based on our reality instead of the one that they're experiencing? For example, if you're a watercolor artist and I'm a mathematician who discovers some new theorom, is it fair for you to demand that I prove it to you using a brush and paints?
Having said that, I too want proof in the currency of my beliefs. I just don't know if that's fair - to the other person or myself.
Regarding the $1 million prize... that's not not what any of this is about. I can't imagine her or myself trying to claim that prize. Not that I don't like the thought of winning $1 million... it's just completely foreign to the concept of what I'm (and she) are trying to discover and experience.
I use my machine for a few things. I use it improve my working concentration as well as rejuvination when I'm feeling tired. :tard:Quote:
Originally Posted by C-shore
I have used the machine for pure entertainment as sometimes I like to set the machine to one of the pyro or mind art programs and plug my headphones into my computer and listen to music and get a light show. Oddly enough this usually induces an ASC .... hmmm or is it a flashback. ha ha (just kidding).
M.
Hi Richard,
It's interesting that there are degrees of lucidity in dreams. In some of the ones I have, I do not become lucid until after the event.Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardHK
Have you ever died in one of your dreams? I have a few times. In this one dream I was being chased by some bad guy who was riding a horse. I ran up this hill and I thought that I outsmarted him. I heard this noise and saw the horse running by riderless as I turned around, realizing I'd been tricked - I was killed. All went black. There was no pain and I do remember marveling at the brilliance my killer had in technique. Odd that I would find that particular thing impressive. lol
In another dream, I actually died slower. It's a rather interesting dream so I'll give a bit more detail.
Dream: I'm sitting in the waiting room at a doctor's office and suddenly I keel over. I can feel my body hit the ground and am aware of my consciousness fading. I can hear the people around me freaking out, someone yelling for an ambulance to be called. I do not feel any pain and I can not move. It is like I am inside my body and outside it at the same time.
I lose consciousness of "that" world and find myself falling through some kind of void (colors swirling - like getting sucked through a vacuum). I find myself standing in my parents back yard and all these nasty things (demons?) are flying around me and at me. I somehow manage to banish them and back into the vacuum void I go. Overall, this was a really scary part of the dream. So many things were happening so fast. I was confused and in a bit of shock because of the suddenness of what was happening to me and around me.
Eventually all this stops and I find myself in some kind of office where this attendant comes up to me and says, "Sorry I had to pull you out like that but I've got an assignment for you. Here's the folder of the personality you will assume". I see the folder but didn't get a chance to read it and before I know it I'm in a city in the U.S..
My mind tells me it's Dallas Texas and the body I am in is not my own. I don't remember very much more detail of the dream other than I was some girl and some guy was going to try to rape and kill me and my "job" was to get her out of the situation alive, which I did and then the dream ended.
Any one else have any bizarre death or near death experiences in a dream?
I would be interesting to look at your personal beliefs to see how they influence the dream. For example, do you believe in 'retrievals', from an OBE point of view? If so, maybe that's why you had that dream... or maybe it was a real rescue of some type, just at another level. Interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marisa
On another subject, I finally got the Requiem CD and used it this morning. The 2nd track was most interesting to me. About half way through it, all of a sudden I could see this huge field and the sky (backdrop?) was black. On the field was a huge object, like a building or ship or something, but totally foreign to me. My first thought was "should I tell someone in the government about this?" and then thought immediately "no, who can trust them anyway."
Then I moved in front of the object and could see stuff written on the front of the big object and on the ground in front of it. They were symbols that I couldn't understand and I was thinking "how interesting". The symbols looked like letters but not English ones or any other language that I know. They were written on what looked like flat paving or cobblestones. They (the stones) looked old. Then something clicked audibly - I think it was something in the room like my cable box or something I?m not sure - and I was 'back'. I tried to return to where I had just been but then the track ended.
I'm going to try it again later today. I'm not sure what my state of mind was, but I was definitely awake (I had just woke up, first thing in the morning). The experience seemed 'normal' at the time but now that I read back through it it seems far out, unbelievable. As usual. So - not a near death experience, but interesting - to me at least.
Hi C-shore,
It was quite a long time ago (years) when I had the dream and who knows what influenced the dream. Perhaps an over-active imagination. :icon_wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by C-shore
So you think what you saw is something that is actually happening? Perhaps the ship represents something to you symbolically?Quote:
On another subject, I finally got the Requiem CD and used it this morning. The 2nd track was most interesting to me. About half way through it, all of a sudden I could see this huge field and the sky (backdrop?) was black. On the field was a huge object, like a building or ship or something, but totally foreign to me. My first thought was "should I tell someone in the government about this?" and then thought immediately "no, who can trust them anyway."
That is interesting.Quote:
Then I moved in front of the object and could see stuff written on the front of the big object and on the ground in front of it. They were symbols that I couldn't understand and I was thinking "how interesting". The symbols looked like letters but not English ones or any other language that I know. They were written on what looked like flat paving or cobblestones. They (the stones) looked old. Then something clicked audibly - I think it was something in the room like my cable box or something I’m not sure - and I was 'back'. I tried to return to where I had just been but then the track ended.
It's not always relevant whether what we "see" is real or not as there is much to learn about ourselves through our "visions". I've used the Tarot and pendulum for years as a bridge between the conscious and unconscious. The unconscious mind believes everything is real, it is our conscious mind that determines what is actually real or not. The conscious mind doesn't always get it right either as sometimes we see things that are not really there or we don't see things that are there. Our beliefs definitely influence our perception of reality. None of this takes away from an astral experience as the "astral" could be an "inner planes" phenomena.Quote:
I'm going to try it again later today. I'm not sure what my state of mind was, but I was definitely awake (I had just woke up, first thing in the morning). The experience seemed 'normal' at the time but now that I read back through it it seems far out, unbelievable. As usual. So - not a near death experience, but interesting - to me at least.
M.
Well, it seems silly - right now - to think that it was something that was actually happening. But there is WAS, clear as day. What I can't figure out is why did I see something that I had no basis/memory of? When recounting dreams, I can usually identify the characters or places even if they don't make sense. But sometimes when meditating (many times over the years) and now with this machine, I'm seeing stuff that I can't figure out where it's from. So for me, dreaming and meditating are two distinct states of consciousness.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marisa
Another possibility is that of a collective unconscious, which I think Freud came up with. Like birds that fly together, they have some memory - or something - that lets them now how to do things without learning them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marisa
The mind is capable of creating the most realistic visions - so real that you would be hard pressed to determine whether they were real or a hallucination. The mind is capable of taking bits and pieces of memories, knowledge and information and putting it together in the most original ways. I think about some of the "unique" dreams I've had over the years that, like you, had no idea where the heck they originated.Quote:
Originally Posted by C-shore
The dream state and meditation state - in brain wave speak - are closely related as both occur in a low alpha/theta state.
Instinctual things?Quote:
Another possibility is that of a collective unconscious, which I think Freud came up with. Like birds that fly together, they have some memory - or something - that lets them now how to do things without learning them.
M.
First of all, it wasn't Freud (like I thought)... it was Carl Jung. He said there's a "collective unconscious", a reservoir of the experiences of our species.Quote:
Originally Posted by C-shore
It's more than instinctual. For example, a human baby knows to suck... that's instinct. But a bird can fly in formation, or a cicada knows only to cycle every 17 years. At what point does instinct turn into something else like pre-existing knowledge that we're connected to somehow?
In humans, where does music come from? Or creative ideas? Is that instinct, intelligence or a collective knowledge or intelligence that already exists, that we all tap into when in the right state of mind? I believe that there's a vast reservoir of knowledge that we can access... where music, ideas and things like that come from. We just need to be able to access it.
When you've had a great idea... did YOU really think of it? Or did you access it it from some great, deep repository of knowledge or font of creativity?
Hi C-shore,
Ah, I thought it may be Jung, though Freud was the first to "discover" the unconscious.Quote:
Originally Posted by C-shore
That is a good question. I wonder if there is a scientific answer to that question. I know little about this area.Quote:
It's more than instinctual. For example, a human baby knows to suck... that's instinct. But a bird can fly in formation, or a cicada knows only to cycle every 17 years. At what point does instinct turn into something else like pre-existing knowledge that we're connected to somehow?
More excellent questions. Some of it has to do with intelligence and with that intelligence comes capabilities such as creativity. Specific abilities such as music, gosh ... hmmm thinking back to ancient man who liked rhythm and the only form of music would be drumming on something ... it was an evolution of sorts in intelligence that led us to create more complex instruments.Quote:
In humans, where does music come from? Or creative ideas? Is that instinct, intelligence or a collective knowledge or intelligence that already exists, that we all tap into when in the right state of mind? I believe that there's a vast reservoir of knowledge that we can access... where music, ideas and things like that come from. We just need to be able to access it.
The idea of a collective unconscious or Akashic records is an interesting one. I do wonder though, if such a thing exists, how come not everyone has "access" to it. If such a thing exists, then accessing it would not depend on faith or belief - because if it exists, it's there and should be accessable by all. What would be that "right" state of mind?
How would one know the correct answer to that question?Quote:
When you've had a great idea... did YOU really think of it? Or did you access it it from some great, deep repository of knowledge or font of creativity?
M.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marisa
I think everyone does have access to it. When one comes up with a unique solution to a problem, I think they're accessing it. And when someone - say Stevie Wonder - comes up with some incredible melody, I think he's REALLY accessing it.
To me, intelligence is being able to figure things out using facts and tools that are at hand. Creativity goes beyond that. You need intelligence as a tool to access and express creativity. But where creativity comes from... that's the question. I feel there IS a source, call it the collective unconscious or God, it's where we all came from and are all made of. Meditation helps get one closer to it.
I'm not sure about that.. but when one has an idea that seems to come out of the blue, or comes up with "e=mc2" for example, that's got to come from somewhere doesn't it? It wasn't there before, and now it is... where did it come from? I think it comes from that source, whatever you want to call it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marisa
Hi C-Shore,
Why couldn't that "brilliance" simply come from the individual?Quote:
Originally Posted by C-shore
I respect that you believe that there is a god or source of some kind. After all, you may be correct. I wish there was some scientific evidence to support your beliefs because then it would be easier for me to accept the belief as my own as well. However, I am stuck on the fence neither believing or disbelieving but curious as to what else could cause these things.Quote:
To me, intelligence is being able to figure things out using facts and tools that are at hand. Creativity goes beyond that. You need intelligence as a tool to access and express creativity. But where creativity comes from... that's the question. I feel there IS a source, call it the collective unconscious or God, it's where we all came from and are all made of. Meditation helps get one closer to it.
The question is, can one be intelligent and not creative or can one be creative and not intelligent? We do know that the more intelligent the person (or animal) the more mental capabilities that being has (including creativity). Of course this brings up the question about autism and savants.
Einstein, for example, didn't just come up with his formula out of the blue. This was something he thought about and worked on for many years. The knowledge leading up to his theory was learned. I think these ideas come from the brain and intelligence. Most brilliant ideas are inspired as a result of a need or curiosity. So there are motivators. I don't think these things happen "out of the blue". I think you need to give the individual and their brain a bit more credit for their capabilities. :)Quote:
I'm not sure about that.. but when one has an idea that seems to come out of the blue, or comes up with "e=mc2" for example, that's got to come from somewhere doesn't it? It wasn't there before, and now it is... where did it come from? I think it comes from that source, whatever you want to call it.
M.
I don't totally believe one way of the other. As he years go on, "proof" matters less and less to me. I do know a few things; that meditation brings one closer to the "source", be that a collective unconscious, God, or just one's own soul. It doesn't really matter which one of those it is... I have the innate drive to go towards it - whatever it is. Proof and belief are secondary to me. Prove what... to whom? Why do I even care about that? I'm searching and traveling toward something, some realization and meaning... as long as I feel I'm progressing, proof is almost meaningless. (Unless I need same ca$h from Mr. Randi!:icon_wink: )Quote:
Originally Posted by Marisa
I do give them credit... using intelligence takes a lot of work and training. But I wonder if that effort just lets one discover things and ideas that already exist (e.g., Einstein - the theory or relativity already exsisted, he just defined it) or if it truly allows one to access new things. I go back to music as an example. Does intelligence just allow one to rearrange existing notes in new pleasing patterns, or is there a real, new essence being formed that truly did not exist previously?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marisa
If so, where did it come from? When an artist, explaining how she came up with her new work, says, "It just came to me", where did it come from?
In order for you to feel you are getting closer to "the source", you have to believe a source (or something to that effect) exists. :icon_wink: Nevertheless, I can appreciate what you are saying about finding something that brings you to a good state of being.Quote:
Originally Posted by C-shore
And I am of the opposite mindset. :) As I get older, I find myself more curious about the science of the world and want to know more about the intricacies of how and why things work. Proof is meaningful to me because it represents facts. Facts represent truth. I want to know what actually is, not what I believe it to be.Quote:
Proof and belief are secondary to me. Prove what... to whom? Why do I even care about that? I'm searching and traveling toward something, some realization and meaning... as long as I feel I'm progressing, proof is almost meaningless.
It kind of reminds me of the movie the Matrix. On the one hand, I wouldn't want to know the "truth" about the Matrix as the world I was living in was comfortable, secure and more fun. There is something to be said about those states of being. Truth isn't always comfortable.
On the other hand, if you know about the "Matrix", ugly and harsh as that reality is, then you can empower yourself to do more when you enter the "Matrix".
So in the end, knowledge is power because only it, can provide true understanding. You can not fully understand anything until you know it and you can't truly "know" it by just belief.
In a sense, those things did already exist and we are merely figuring out how they work. That the universe already exists means that the formula to how and why it exists also exists ... we just haven't discovered it fully yet. Very few people can pick up an instrument and play it without first learning how - so you would need more than just the right frame of mind to play an instrument well. So yes, I would say that intelligence and/or the brain allows the person to rearrange notes in new pleasing patterns. Without intelligence, we would not be able to understand how to play an instrument, talk or sing.Quote:
I do give them credit... using intelligence takes a lot of work and training. But I wonder if that effort just lets one discover things and ideas that already exist (e.g., Einstein - the theory or relativity already existed, he just defined it) or if it truly allows one to access new things. I go back to music as an example. Does intelligence just allow one to rearrange existing notes in new pleasing patterns, or is there a real, new essence being formed that truly did not exist previously?
It came from the person's brain, which is highly creative and capable. Each of us, though we have many things in common, are also highly unique. Why "should" the best of our abilities have to come from an outside source? Why isn't it enough that we are capable of creating such beauty or brilliance all by ourselves? Is a beautiful song less beautiful if it was inspired by the human, than if it was inspired by "the source"? Do you not believe that we, as humans are capable of creating beautiful works of art or brilliant inventions or discoveries on our own?Quote:
If so, where did it come from? When an artist, explaining how she came up with her new work, says, "It just came to me", where did it come from?
Could we not be just that great?
Back to you.
M.
So you're saying that belief doesn't equal truth? And how do you know whose "facts" equal truths? Sometime you should look up 'facts' that turned out not to be so, as they were tainted by current thinking (earth is flat, man can never fly, etc). Or by current beliefs. I think it turns out that beliefs are as valid as truths... it just depends whose you are talking about. If you are vigorously exploring something yourself, then your research - and therefore beliefs - are as good as anyone's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marisa
I know that the sky is blue - from observation. But I can't prove it as fact to you. The scientific method is just that - a method (and a good one). But personal observation can create a level of belief that is just as valid... in my mind anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marisa
My point is that it IS ourselves. We ARE the source. We are extensions of the creator... the source... whatever. You are part of me, visa versa, and we're both part of the earth, the sun and all the thoughts and intelligence and creativity that exists. It's not "us" versus "it". It's just "us".Quote:
Originally Posted by Marisa
Do you believe in the "big bang"? If so... then we're a small part of what came out of that bang, inexorably intertwined with everything else that came out of it. (BTW, I loved The Matrix as a metaphor for much of what we're discussing.)
Although a belief is often perceived as true by the person, that belief may actually be untrue. The funny things about beliefs is that the believer is convinced that the belief is truth, even when that belief has been proven false. Christians believe the earth is only a few thousand years old, when there is scientific evidence that proves the world is much older.Quote:
Originally Posted by C-shore
So, yes belief equals a believed truth but belief does not necessarily equal a proven truth.
A fact is something that is scientifically proven to be true. For example, we breath air is a proven truth. We can not breath underwater - another proven truth. These facts will produce the same results time and time again.Quote:
And how do you know whose "facts" equal truths?
The dictionary says that a fact is something than can be proven (or verified beyond doubt).
"a statement or assertion of verified information about something that is the case or has happened "
Those are not facts, they were scientific hypothesis and/or beliefs. Many people believed the world was flat until it was proven not to be.Quote:
Sometime you should look up 'facts' that turned out not to be so, as they were tainted by current thinking (earth is flat, man can never fly, etc).
Concepts such as there is or is not a God is a belief. It can not be a fact (either way) since it can not be proven either way.
A fact can not be subjective. The dictionary defines truth as "a fact that has been verified". So it appears that the words "truth" and "fact" are related.Quote:
Or by current beliefs. I think it turns out that beliefs are as valid as truths... it just depends whose you are talking about.
A belief can be subjective. A belief comes from a perception of truth. Perception can be flawed. We can have false beliefs. We can have untrue beliefs. We can also have true beliefs. Because beliefs are not always a reflection of a factual truth, they are not a reliable measure of truth.
An anorexic believes that s/he is fat. A dog lover believes dogs are better than cats. Each model on America's next top model believes that she should win the prize. Christians believe that evolution didn't happen. Beliefs are subjective.
A fact is indisputable. Fact: Each of us will one day die. Fact: I was born. Fact: I drink water. Each of these things can be proven to be true. The proof does not depend upon belief as it is so regardless if anyone else believes it or not. This is not the case with beliefs.
Mind-bendy isn't it.
One's research could be faulty. One's method of research or sources of information could be faulty. So it really does depend on your research and the research you are conducting. The bible, for example, is not a good source for conducting research as much of what is in it can not be verified as truth.Quote:
If you are vigorously exploring something yourself, then your research - and therefore beliefs - are as good as anyone's.
Personal observation is not a good measure of reality because our brains can be easily tricked into seeing things that are not there and believing things that are not so. Your u/c mind has no way of distinguishing truth or fiction on its own. The conscious mind does a pretty good job but it often gets things wrong as well ... that is how misunderstandings are formed and we have all experienced that.Quote:
I know that the sky is blue - from observation.
But I can't prove it as fact to you. The scientific method is just that - a method (and a good one). But personal observation can create a level of belief that is just as valid... in my mind anyway.
That is your belief. It is not a fact and it may or may not be true. It can not be a fact until it can be proven true or false, therefore it is a theory or belief.Quote:
My point is that it IS ourselves. We ARE the source. We are extensions of the creator... the source... whatever. You are part of me, visa versa, and we're both part of the earth, the sun and all the thoughts and intelligence and creativity that exists. It's not "us" versus "it". It's just "us".
I support the big bang theory. I'm not sure if it's been proven to be a fact yet but it certainly makes more sense then the alternative explanation (god plunked us down on earth after our ancestors got in trouble for eating apples).Quote:
Do you believe in the "big bang"? If so... then we're a small part of what came out of that bang, inexorably intertwined with everything else that came out of it. (BTW, I loved The Matrix as a metaphor for much of what we're discussing.)
Try this out: There is grass on my lawn. Fact. It was created by something/someone. Fact. Now the only open question is who or what? Some people say that's god, some say chemical reaction, but what's really the difference?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marisa
I say fact. We're all made up of the same chemicals, particle, molecules, atoms. When you die you will burn/decompose and the chemicals will become another person, dog, quarter-pounder w/cheese, etc. The soul... that's another question.Quote:
I said: My point is that it IS ourselves. We ARE the source. We are extensions of the creator... the source... whatever. You are part of me, visa versa, and we're both part of the earth, the sun and all the thoughts and intelligence and creativity that exists. It's not "us" versus "it". It's just "us".
You said: That is your belief. It is not a fact and it may or may not be true. It can not be a fact until it can be proven true or false, therefore it is a theory or belief.
Well, the word "created" is a bit of a funky word in that it implies that grass didn't just come into existence through an evolutionary process. The word "created" implies that some being had a hand in the making of the grass. Therefore your statement "grass was created by someone or something" is actually not a fact because of the word "created" -- we can't prove that grass was "created".Quote:
Originally Posted by C-shore
It's a tricky argument, for sure. A fact would be: Grass exists. We can prove that statement. Grass, I'm sure has an evolutionary origin which would mean that "grass" was not created, that grass evolved from sea moss or whatever it is that it evolved from.
So, the origin of anything can probably be traced back to space dust and one could say that God created the space dust but then that would be a belief, not a fact because we don't know what "created" the space dust or if it was created at all.
There is a difference because one statement implies that there is a "god" or "creator" and the adverse argument is that we don't know if there is a creator. It may seem like a petty difference but it isn't because the meaning changes with the words used.
Ah but we don't know what the soul is or if it exists outside of the living being. The "soul" could be a component of personality that dies with the person. I would like it if we had a soul that survives our physical death but just because I would like that to be so ... does not make it so.Quote:
I say fact. We're all made up of the same chemicals, particle, molecules, atoms. When you die you will burn/decompose and the chemicals will become another person, dog, quarter-pounder w/cheese, etc. The soul... that's another question.
If space dust wasn't created, then it's not real. If it's not real, then neither are or you. Or I. Therefore, if we think it is real, since we exist, then someone/thing had to create it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marisa
I agree with you on that... I tend to think that the soul does survive. Maybe that's wishful thinking, but so what? If I'm right it will give me something to live for until my dying day, and if I'm wrong, I'll never know.Quote:
I would like it if we had a soul that survives our physical death but just because I would like that to be so ... does not make it so.
Meanwhile, I keep meditating and searching to prove it to myself. I've had many experiences that lead me to believe that there's a lot of stuff going on outside of our human existence. But that gets back to some of your earlier comments asking are those experiences real, or from my imagination?
At minimum, even if they are "just" from my imagination, I'm still really happy about it as I've learned to tap something deep inside of me that is a never-ending source of surprising creativity, ideas, images, people and other cool stuff.
It appears we are back to a semantic argument concerning the word "create". Earlier I mentioned that the word "create" implies that there is a creator (a being who creates) involved. Do you accept this definition of create?Quote:
Originally Posted by C-shore
If so, then let's look at your statement and continue our argument.:)
So, you would conclude that in order for something to be real, it has to be created by a being of some sort? That's fine. It's a belief though, not a fact. :eusa_think:Quote:
"If space dust wasn't created, then it's not real"
I can appreciate what you are saying. Believing in "god", the soul, an afterlife etc. is much more comfortable than the alternative. This being the case, it is dangerous for you to walk this path of argument because sometimes when you shine the spot light on beliefs - you do run the risk of opening the door to question them and once you choose that path ... you can never go back. This I know from experience.Quote:
I agree with you on that... I tend to think that the soul does survive. Maybe that's wishful thinking, but so what? If I'm right it will give me something to live for until my dying day, and if I'm wrong, I'll never know.
Hey wait a minute ... didn't you say earlier that you didn't need proof? Did you change your mind?Quote:
Meanwhile, I keep meditating and searching to prove it to myself. I've had many experiences that lead me to believe that there's a lot of stuff going on outside of our human existence. But that gets back to some of your earlier comments asking are those experiences real, or from my imagination?
In some ways it doesn't matter if an experience is physically real or a creation of your mind. It is still an experience. It can still be enjoyed and you can still learn from it. Here is where the discussion can take an interesting turn about reality. Did you know that the unconscious mind does not know how to differentiate between what is real (of this physical world) and what is imagined?
Amen to that. :)Quote:
At minimum, even if they are "just" from my imagination, I'm still really happy about it as I've learned to tap something deep inside of me that is a never-ending source of surprising creativity, ideas, images, people and other cool stuff.
M.
Hi :)Quote:
Originally Posted by C-shore
I have had OOBE but in all those cases it happened just after using an AVS machine, when i kept lying down without moving (glasses and headphones still on) after the session. In all the cases i felt very peacefull and "high" after the session so i dind't want to moove. I started slipping in and out of sleep and vivid dreams. Later when i decided to get up, i sure got up and walked a few steps but was sudently "sucked" back into my body and i realised i had an OOBE, later i tried geting up again and the same thing happened.. over and over.. maybe 5 times. During other sessions i have experienced lifting my hand to grab or adjust something but i only mooved my "astral" body-arm and the "real" arm didn't moove, and i could see this through my closed eyelids. The session i used for this is posted by me in the library section under sessions -> procyon with a description of the meditation i did during the session before the OOBE's.(created the session myself).
Kind regards,
Marcus Knudsen
http://www.godsdirectcontact.org/Quote:
Originally Posted by C-shore
Hi, just dropping my .02 here on this topic.
I have OBEs pretty often by using a mind machine I have called InnerQuest (it's old). I haven't have one using procyon but I hopefuly will after I get my editor to connect.
There is no mistaking lucid dreaming with OBEs. They are very different experiences. If you are not sure you had an OBE is because you didn't have one.
I have noticed that if I think/worry too much about material things (money, status, etc) the OBEs are much more difficult to achieve. But that's my personal experience, I don't know if it has to do with anything, but at least for me when I am a less involved in the mundane worries OBEs are very easy to achieve.
The first time it happen I freaked out but after some reading I understood what was happening. It's a wonderful experience and it can greatly help on one's development. Trust me, when you have an OBE you will know you had one.
The jury is still out for me on the literal OOBE interpretation... I"m inclined to think it's all generated in the mind, which is still utterly fantastic....
That being said-
I've had 2 experiences using my Sirius machine where I felt as if I were about to leave my body. It was an intense feeling of it almost happening, or maybe beginning to happen... there was no 'point of reference' in that I was looking down at my body or anything like that, it was more like my center of perception was leaving my body and moving into the visual fields being generated by the Sirius machine. I felt as if I were looking into a huge expansive circular bubble of space, and I was jumping into it. It was great!
-Ben